Original Sin

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rafaelsald

rafaelsald

Senior Member
#1
Dec 30, 2009
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I was talking with a muslim friend and he asked me if i believe in original sin because his brothers died when they were infants then he wants my opinion if his brothers could be saved. Could his brothers saved by the mercy of God?

The doctrine of Original Sin says that the man was born sinner and it's happened because *of failed of Adam. And I believe in this doctrine.


*forgive me my bad english. I'm trying to
improve everyday.
 
rafaelsald

rafaelsald

Senior Member
#2
Dec 30, 2009
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I should to go to the bed. It's very late here and I have to go to the church this
morning. It's 1:38am now!

Shalom!
God bless.
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#3
Feb 16, 2010
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This is very debatable. I'm afraid you are not going to be able to find a conclusive answer.

Quest
 
rafaelsald

rafaelsald

Senior Member
#4
Dec 30, 2009
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Do you know the answer? I can not sleep because about this question.

I think that the babies will go to the hell. They are sinners and God is holy. They can't stand before a Holy God. Unless they have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, but it isn't happened.

But i want to see other opinons and visiones about this question. A baptist pastor said to
me that the babies will go to the heaven but he didn't convince me.
 
G

giantone

Guest
#6
#6
Notice in verse 9, I was alive apart from the law then the commandment came sin revived and I died.
Infants that don't get a chance to know the commandment are still alive apart from the law, so they are in Heaven. Also God judges you according to your knowledge.

Romans 7:8 *But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 *For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 *And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 *For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#7
Feb 16, 2010
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That's a really good answer Giantone.

The Calvinists would say typically that the Babies can't be in heaven, that God predestined them for everlasting burnings before creation, because it was His good pleasure to do so.

Arminians would have various viewpoints, probably all agreeing for the most part that the babies would be in heaven. Some would say that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison - and that might include these babies - others might say that because they died God didn't predestinate them from before creation according to foreknowledge (knowing who would accept and reject Him ahead of time)

There is no way to prove from the scripture conclusively.

But here is my Arminian opinion: That God is a God of love, and that He won't reject anyone unless they reject Him first.

Quest
 
S

socperkins

Guest
#8
#8
There is an "age of accountability" talked about in the Old Testament. Basically until a person reaches a certain age they are not held accountable for their sinful nature. Babies and children therefore go to Heaven.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#9
Feb 12, 2009
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QuestionTime said:
That's a really good answer Giantone.

The Calvinists would say typically that the Babies can't be in heaven, that God predestined them for everlasting burnings before creation, because it was His good pleasure to do so.

Arminians would have various viewpoints, probably all agreeing for the most part that the babies would be in heaven. Some would say that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison - and that might include these babies - others might say that because they died God didn't predestinate them from before creation according to foreknowledge (knowing who would accept and reject Him ahead of time)

There is no way to prove from the scripture conclusively.

But here is my Arminian opinion: That God is a God of love( and wrath), and that He won't reject anyone unless they reject Him first. God has already condemned man,, Jesus' own words? man has already rejected God? Romans 1:18vv

Quest
Click to expand...
My own view point is that infants will go to heaven, thats just my own view point I am reformed, there are many reformed who believe this also, man I don't where people get their information on reformed theology, you guys must just make it up as you go along. unless you get it from'''reliable websites'''?.

Anyhow, babies/infants (young infants who would mentally not be able to exercise Faith) and those who are disabled and no matter what age could not exercise Faith will be in Heaven.

Now at what age a child will be able to exercise Faith is a different question altogether, everyone develops at different rates.

But not all believe this.. but I personally do. even though you are predestined, you still have to exercise Faith, I don't believe a baby or young child can possibly do this and God also knows this..

Phil
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#10
Feb 16, 2010
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phil36 said:
My own view point is that infants will go to heaven, thats just my own view point I am reformed, there are many reformed who believe this also, man I don't where people get their information on reformed theology, you guys must just make it up as you go along. unless you get it from'''reliable websites'''?
Phil
Click to expand...
Everytime I debated in the past - 2-3 years ago - with the Calvinists at YouTube, I would be confronted with this argument in favor of Calvinism, and they would say that God didn't choose them and that is why God let them die young. God allows aborted babies because He didn't choose them.

Then they would challenge me and ask me how I could resolve this problem as an Arminian, which is of course very difficult to do.

Anyway, I made sure I said "typically" because I am sure that others probably have a different opinion, though I haven't seen a different opinion until now. Perhaps I should have worded it: "some" rather than "typically" as that denotes a different quantity. Problem is I have no idea on quantity other than my debating experience.

Quest
 
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phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#11
Feb 12, 2009
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QuestionTime said:
Everytime I debated in the past - 2-3 years ago - with the Calvinists at YouTube, I would be confronted with this argument in favor of Calvinism, and they would say that God didn't choose them and that is why God let them die young. God allows aborted babies because He didn't choose them.

Then they would challenge me and ask me how I could resolve this problem as an Arminian, which is of course very difficult to do.

Anyway, I made sure I said "typically" because I am sure that others probably have a different opinion, though I haven't seen a different opinion until now. Perhaps I should have worded it: "some" rather than "typically" as that denotes a different quantity. Problem is I have no idea on quantity other than my debating experience.

Quest
Click to expand...

Yep its a hard thing, as we really really don't know what the answer is, no matter what theological stance you take. I just take the stance that since babies and infants and those who are mentally disabled, who cannot exercise Faith will be saved. that's neither inherently Arminian or reformed or anything is, just my own personal conviction.

I believe in original sin, yet I can't see how the wrath of God will be on those who cannot mentally exercise Faith,, i.e, babies/infants and mentally disabled. But I could be totally wrong QT.

What do others think?

In Love

Phil
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#12
Feb 16, 2010
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phil36 said:
Yep its a hard thing, as we really really don't know what the answer is, no matter what theological stance you take. I just take the stance that since babies and infants and those who are mentally disabled, who cannot exercise Faith will be saved. that's neither inherently Arminian or reformed or anything is, just my own personal conviction.

I believe in original sin, yet I can't see how the wrath of God will be on those who cannot mentally exercise Faith,, i.e, babies/infants and mentally disabled. But I could be totally wrong QT.

What do others think?

In Love

Phil
Click to expand...

Sorry I probably could have worded things a bit nicer in my original post. I was being a little sarcastic I guess.

Quest
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#13
Feb 12, 2009
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#13
QuestionTime said:

Sorry I probably could have worded things a bit nicer in my original post. I was being a little sarcastic I guess.

Quest
Click to expand...

not at all QT, I don't think I worded mine properly either lol. its a hard topic mind you about babies/infants etc.

Phil
 
DinoDillinger

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
#14
Jul 28, 2009
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Well I know David believed that his baby who died went to heaven, likewise Jesus said such are the kingdom of Heaven. I lean reformed and believe in original sin. I also think that believing someone isn't called because they die as a baby is us trying to put God in a box. I think that more likely God is calling them home early.
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#15
Feb 9, 2010
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Everybody is a sinner but not everybody will go to hell who do not know God.

The Bible says that the angels are sent to minister to all who shall inherit salvation.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven(Matthew 8:10).

The angels always protect the little ones who are not at the age of accountablity to repent of their sins so the devil cannot touch them spiritually.The Bible says that their(the little children)angels always behold the face of the Father for them.Angels are only sent to minister and protect people who shall inherit salvation.

If a person dies before the age of accountability they wil go to heaven.They could not go to hell because they did not know to repent of their sins and we are not blamed for Adam and Eve's sin.

If they do not go to heaven then they would have to go in to nonexistence as if they never been born but God imparts the soul at birth so they would go to heaven.

Matt
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#16
Feb 12, 2009
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Yeah I agree with you mpaper, babies and infants and those mentally disabled can't possible know to repent, or cannot grasp the concept of sin, even though they have the sin nature..that's the difference..they just don't know it, so cannot be judged on it.

that's my view.. I think generally most people hold the view that babies etc will be in heaven, even thought they are born as we all are with a sin nature, born from original sin.

Phil
 
KayCee

KayCee

Banned
#17
Aug 16, 2009
129
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#17
mpaper345 said:
Everybody is a sinner but not everybody will go to hell who do not know God.

The Bible says that the angels are sent to minister to all who shall inherit salvation.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven(Matthew 8:10).

The angels always protect the little ones who are not at the age of accountablity to repent of their sins so the devil cannot touch them spiritually.The Bible says that their(the little children)angels always behold the face of the Father for them.Angels are only sent to minister and protect people who shall inherit salvation.

If a person dies before the age of accountability they wil go to heaven.They could not go to hell because they did not know to repent of their sins and we are not blamed for Adam and Eve's sin.

If they do not go to heaven then they would have to go in to nonexistence as if they never been born but God imparts the soul at birth so they would go to heaven.

Matt
Click to expand...
Hi mpaper,
I agree with you in all respects. Thank you, my brother, for putting the right face on things.
KayCee
 
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zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#18
Aug 2, 2009
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Was Moses baptised? no, but he is in heaven. He appeared to Jesus during the transformation.

Was David baptised? no. but he also is in heaven.

Was Abraham baptised? No. And yet Jesus procalimed to the pharisees that he knows Abraham (because Abraham LIVES in heaven).

All of these people came AFTER ADAM and were not baptised, yet they are in heaven.

One principle you can count on is that GOD IS JUST.
If God sent babies to hell when they had no chance to save themselves He would not be a just God.
 
K

Kuroko

Guest
#19
#19
Mpaper answered it quite well.

For some reason not many people ACTUALLY know what the original sin was/is.

They just know what Adam did o.0

Suffice it to say children remain children so long as they remain innocent of this sin, your friends brothers were saved.

Being born into sin and being born as a sinner are different things entirely :p
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#20
Feb 12, 2009
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#20
Kuroko said:
Mpaper answered it quite well.

For some reason not many people ACTUALLY know what the original sin was/is.

They just know what Adam did o.0

Suffice it to say children remain children so long as they remain innocent of this sin, your friends brothers were saved.

Being born into sin and being born as a sinner are different things entirely :p
Click to expand...

That's novel please define this for me Kuroko?
 
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