Origins of a Contrite Heart?

[Grandpa]

When does that change come? At convertion? In the middle? Before you die? When do we become slaves to Christ? When do we die to the flesh?

The change comes when you come before the Lord Jesus Christ and you cry out to Him for help and salvation and He saves you and translates you from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

Somewhere in there, either just before or just after, you realize that nothing you did or could have done could have bridged the gap to cause you to translate yourself into the Kingdom of Light.

When you realize that, you realize that all the steps leading up to it were just as big and couldn't have been done without the Lord.

And obviously all the steps after that are authored and finished by the Lord as well. He is the Good Shepherd and we are His sheep.

 

[Love4Truth]

When does that change come? At convertion? In the middle? Before you die? When do we become slaves to Christ? When do we die to the flesh?

When He has fully Persuaded us of who He is, and what He has done for us. This is what "Real Faith" is.
To be persuaded through The Spirit of Truth. It is a process.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith

Faith:
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


God Bless

 

[crossnote]

So, a sinner's heart is humbled.....then what? What is rependance? Are we to totally forsake our past life then and there are can one continue in a sin as long as he tried to stop it through the help of the Spirit?

I explained it in the post that followed the one you just quoted.

 

[tribesman]

Where does a contrite heart come from, a product brought about by a person's guilty conscience or a work performed by the Spirit?...

An unregenerate, natural, fleshly man can never ever work up a contrition in his wicked, uncircumcised heart that pleases God. He is dead in his sins, at enmity with God and bearing fruit unto death. The life of God is but foolishness to him.

1Cor.2

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[zone]

Brother, cee, welcome back, brother !

Ah, yes, the contrite heart, God esteems the one who is contrite and, oh, yes, trembles at His Word.

And, tremble at the verse above Isaiah 66:2, too, in 66:1, our God, all the power, all and all, over ALL, heaven, earth, and, yes, don't forget 'the universe,' Is too. How great Thou art .

How Great Thou Art by Alan Jackson

How Great Thou Art by Alan Jackson - YouTube < click

 

[cfultz3]

In my attempt to understand the source of a contrite heart, I am doing a deep study and ask all who will reply to specifically reply to particular points (please do not reply to the whole post). Make your point and if possible, give verse(s) to make your point clean.

The following is just one part of a bigger study is not meant to be conclusive, seeing that it is an on going study. So please, do not accuse me of looking for credit in my salvation, I just hunger proper understaninding of the Truth and ask that you curl in that pointy finger


cfultz3: Where does a contrite heart come from, a product brought about by a person's guilty conscience or a work performed by the Spirit?

Of the four verses which contain the word "contrite":

1) The LORD is near those who are of a broken (H7665 = broken down) heart and saves such who are of a contrite (H1793 = crushed) spirit. (Psa_34:18 KJV)

Septuagint: the LORD is near those having had brokened (G4937 = shattered)(RMP) the heart and those humbled (G5011 = lowly) in the spirit shall He save.

brokened RMP (peRfect Middle voice Participle) = one who had performed an action upon one's self with respect to time.


Notes on Psa_34:18:


what lead up to verse 18:

• I shall bless the LORD at all times (v1)
• My soul shall make her boast in the LORD (v2)
• You magnify the LORD with me (v3)
• let us exalt His name together (v3)
• I sought the LORD and He heard and delivered me.... (v4)
• They looked unto Him and they sparkled (v5)
• This poor man cried and the LORD heard and saved him...(v6)
• The Angel of the LORD encamps round about those who fear Him and delivers them (v7)
• You taste and see that the LORD is good (v8)
• The one who trusts Him is blessed (v8)
• You, His saints, fear the LORD (v9)
• They who seek the LORD shall not want...(v10)
• You come, You hearken unto me (Jesus) and I will teach you the fear of the LORD (v11)
• You keep your tongue from evil (v13)
• You keep your lips from speaking guile (v13)
• You depart from evil, do good, seek and persue peace (v14)
• The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, ears are open to their cry (v15,17)
• The face of the LORD is against those who do evil....(v16)

&#12288;
​

 

[resurrection33]

Where does a contrite heart come from, a product brought about by a person's guilty conscience or a work performed by the Spirit?

Verses for your point?

(Psa 34:18) The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

(Psa 51:17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

(Isa 57:15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

(Isa 66:2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

We sin, the Lord disciplines us, and if we are smart, we don’t commit a similar sin.

 

[cfultz3]

In my attempt to understand the source of a contrite heart, I am doing a deep study and ask all who will reply to specifically reply to particular points (please do not reply to the whole post). Make your point and if possible, give verse(s) to make your point clean.

The following is just one part of a bigger study is not meant to be conclusive, seeing that it is an on going study. So please, do not accuse me of looking for credit in my salvation, I just hunger proper understaninding of the Truth and ask that you curl in that pointy finger


cfultz3: Where does a contrite heart come from, a product brought about by a person's guilty conscience or a work performed by the Spirit?

Of the four verses which contain the word "contrite":

1) The LORD is near those who are of a broken (H7665 = broken down) heart and saves such who are of a contrite (H1793 = crushed) spirit. (Psa_34:18 KJV)

Septuagint: the LORD is near those having had brokened (G4937 = shattered)(RMP) the heart and those humbled (G5011 = lowly) in the spirit shall He save.

brokened RMP (peRfect Middle voice Participle) = one who had performed an action upon one's self with respect to time.


Notes on Psa_34:18:


what lead up to verse 18:

• I shall bless the LORD at all times (v1)
• My soul shall make her boast in the LORD (v2)
• You magnify the LORD with me (v3)
• let us exalt His name together (v3)
• I sought the LORD and He heard and delivered me.... (v4)
• They looked unto Him and they sparkled (v5)
• This poor man cried and the LORD heard and saved him...(v6)
• The Angel of the LORD encamps round about those who fear Him and delivers them (v7)
• You taste and see that the LORD is good (v8)
• The one who trusts Him is blessed (v8)
• You, His saints, fear the LORD (v9)
• They who seek the LORD shall not want...(v10)
• You come, You hearken unto me (Jesus) and I will teach you the fear of the LORD (v11)
• You keep your tongue from evil (v13)
• You keep your lips from speaking guile (v13)
• You depart from evil, do good, seek and persue peace (v14)
• The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, ears are open to their cry (v15,17)
• The face of the LORD is against those who do evil....(v16)&#12288;

In the next set of our studying, we will see what God does to a contrite heart. But, before we go further, is there anyone else who wishes to add things so that we can come up to the correct understanding of the source of a contrite heart.

I would like if people who would be interested in furthering this studying would reply even with a simply....yes, let us continue.....

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Contrite:

H1793
&#1491;&#1468;&#1499;&#1468;&#1488;
dakka&#770;'
dak-kaw'
From H1792; crushed (literally powder, or figuratively contrite): - contrite, destruction.

This kind of heart can only come from a truly repentant heart, that is under the conviction of the spirit who has come to do this:

Joh 16:8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.

Thus a person will come broken before God, yielding to His word and convicting power, expecting nothing from God.

you do not receive the spirit of God still IN your sins, then become contrite, you become contrite by the convicting power of the spirit, stopping your vile sins and rebellion against God, to receive His spirit in a cleansed and purged vessel, again it all boils down to repentance and faith both proven by deeds, not dead outer works of the flesh, but a real broken and contrite heart, coming to the mercy seat of God, assuming nothing from Him,hoping He will see fit to relent and grant mercy to the repentant sinner.

Here is a great example of a contrite heart before God, notice, none received the holy spirit, or were instantly saved by God until after they truly repented of thier vile sins, not taking the mercy of God for granted!

The contrite must be real, if not such as the sorrow of the world, then nothing happened in the heart, and the mercy of God is taken in vain!
Jon 3:8 But let man and animal be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God. And let them each one turn from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? He may repent, and God may have pity and turn away from the glow of His anger, so that we do not perish.

 

[Grandpa]

Psalm 23:1-3
1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

The Lord leads me in the paths of righteousness. He causes me to walk in His statutes. God is drawing me closer and closer to Him. The broken heart and contrite spirit are part of this drawing by God.

 

[cfultz3]

Psalm 23:1-3
1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

The Lord leads me in the paths of righteousness. He causes me to walk in His statutes. God is drawing me closer and closer to Him. The broken heart and contrite spirit are part of this drawing by God.

Grandpa,

I cannot agree with you more, that once someone accepts God, His Spirit leads into paths of righteousness. In this, there is absolutely no questioning about who leads into paths of righteousness.

What I am trying to study is the source of a contrite heart. That is, from that post which summorized what led up to Psa 34:18, since we humans come to a point were we are sorry for our sins by the conviction of the Spirit, does the Spirit inplant that contrite heart as He does when He implates a new heart in those who are in Christ? Or, do we as creatures need to come to God in rependance before we receive salvation?

I lean more to the side where we need to repent before we become a child of God. And if this is true, is it more of a conscience thing more than a spiritual thing, seeing that we are still carnel before we repent and therefore are dead to spiritual (Spiritual) things?

My pondering can go on forever, as you can see, but I hope I have made clear what I am trying to study and look forward to more imput.

 

[cfultz3]

Contrite:

H1793
&#1491;&#1468;&#1499;&#1468;&#1488;
dakka&#770;'
dak-kaw'
From H1792; crushed (literally powder, or figuratively contrite): - contrite, destruction.

This kind of heart can only come from a truly repentant heart, that is under the conviction of the spirit who has come to do this:

Joh 16:8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.

Thus a person will come broken before God, yielding to His word and convicting power, expecting nothing from God.

you do not receive the spirit of God still IN your sins, then become contrite, you become contrite by the convicting power of the spirit, stopping your vile sins and rebellion against God, to receive His spirit in a cleansed and purged vessel, again it all boils down to repentance and faith both proven by deeds, not dead outer works of the flesh, but a real broken and contrite heart, coming to the mercy seat of God, assuming nothing from Him,hoping He will see fit to relent and grant mercy to the repentant sinner.

Here is a great example of a contrite heart before God, notice, none received the holy spirit, or were instantly saved by God until after they truly repented of thier vile sins, not taking the mercy of God for granted!

The contrite must be real, if not such as the sorrow of the world, then nothing happened in the heart, and the mercy of God is taken in vain!
Jon 3:8 But let man and animal be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God. And let them each one turn from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? He may repent, and God may have pity and turn away from the glow of His anger, so that we do not perish.

Do I summorize you correctly when I say:

A child of the rebellion has to turn from the darkness of his present lord and turn his eyes upon the Light from God and make Him his Lord? And this is done when the conviction from the Spirit has been hearkened to and the soul itself, inasmuch as he decided to have lived for the flesh (etc), must also decide to approach the Light upon His mercy seat?

And if this is true, then a contrite heart is defined: willfully hearkening to the Spirit's conviction to the point where there is no more rebellion from the soul, but remorse for having lived in transgression. And the soul itself decides to bring this rebellion to an end through the convcition of the Spirit.

My thoughts on some of the things which led up to Psa 34:18:


I sought the LORD and He heard and delivered me.... (v4,6)

David sought, with tears, the LORD and then the LORD heard him and delivered him


You taste and see that the LORD is good (v8)
The one who trusts Him is blessed (v8)

Inasmuch as it is us as individual beings who decide what we pertake of, it seems here that it is implied that we must again decide if we wish to pertake of the LORD. And that decision comes at the conversion brought about by the conviction of the Spirit.

As a being who has decided to remain a child of the rebellion, that soul has decided to keep tasting that darkness. And if we understand that it was that soul who decided to remain, then it would be conclusive to apply in a reverse manner that logic to a soul who has decided to have tasted of the LORD.

My point is that it is the soul who must walk away from his rebellion, seeing that he cannot walk in darkness and the Light at the same time. Otherwise, living in rebellion and confession the Lord, that soul remains in the darkness. So, we must repent, that is, turn away from the darkness, before we can turn and look upon the Light.


You come, You hearken unto me (Jesus) and I will teach you the fear of the LORD (v11)

You turn away from the darkness and listen and obey me and I (God) will teach you the fear of the LORD. Now, what happens if we do not come away and follow Him? Can we obey Him while still walking in rebellion? Can we have two masters to obey?

You keep your tongue from evil (v13)
You keep your lips from speaking guile (v13)
You depart from evil, do good, seek and persue peace (v14)

We cannot do this apart from hearkening to the Spirit. This hearkening to the Spirit is the only means we have in order to keep ourselves on that path led by Him (without listening and obeying what He says, then we are led astray by whatever means). And from verse 11, before we can be led, we must first come to Him (spiritually, turn our spiritual eyes away from the darkness and place it upon Him). Then what Grandpa says is VERY MUCH true:

The Lord leads me in the paths of righteousness. He causes me to walk in His statutes. God is drawing me closer and closer to Him. The broken heart and contrite spirit are part of this drawing by God.

 

[pickles]

I will just share one of the most changing times of my life.
For God has been working on me for a long time and despite the many difficulties that were set in my path, I had alwas had a confidence in a few who I believed would love me always, and never hurt me intentionally.
I wont go into any detail, but certain cercomstances brought me to see, that these who I believed in their love, hurt me in a way that caused me to feel as though I had nothing left.
So great was the hurt and loss in me?
Even death would not reliece me, for this injury was greater than death, I had lost all hope, dispair ? I did not know it could be so great as to break everything in me, it actually damaged my heart physically, causeing a perminate change to its beat.
My dr noted it, wondering what happened, I never spoke to it.
Was pride a part of it, probably, but more, is to give all ones love to others who are close, and to have this love broken, dispised?
I was alive only because I had not even the streangth to do otherwise, I did not even care enough to die.
I had been broken many times in my life, but this made every brokenness, seem as nothing, compaired to the pain I was in.
I was beyond prayer, I lay there not even able to cry out, nothing , nothing was able to bring any comfort.
I could barely lift my eyes to look to up, I wondered if God had abandonded me, how He could allow such death to me?
As I lay there, with nothing left, a gentle voice spoke, saying praise me.
Some might say how can you ask this? but I didnt even have the care or streangth to say this.
Jesus must have stored the tinyest seed of hope in me some where, for even though I could barely move or speak.
I began to praise God and as I did this, the praise increaced.
Scriptures that speak to being lifted up out ofthe muck and mire.
That speak to God's glory when one is in the depths of dispair.
Do not begin to speak to the glory and greatness of Gods love that poured out upon me, filling me, breathing life back into me.
I was filled again with faith, hope and His love, my heart softened , and I saw the ones who hurt me, like children, like me, simply weak and unknowing of the things we do.
My heart was filled with forgivness.
It took time to recover, for the theif will try to steal where ever he can, but God's love and mercy given in Jesus, through His holy Spirit ,was written upon me and sealed as never before.
For when there is nothing left to lose, this is when one comes to see and know the love God gives and sees how the things , even others are, cannot bring life or fill .
There is only one way, that is in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh, trusting all to God Our Father and his unending love, and the comfort of the Holy Spirit.
This is when ones realises trully why praise is trully the only sacrifice one can set before God, and even then seeing this is His gift.

For all is your praise Lord God! all is your glory! All is your Love!
You trully are, I am!







God bless
pickles
And bore a trust that has increased since

 

[Bookends]

May I ask the question, what difference does it make? As long as one repents and receives Christ as Lord and savior? Why is it such an issue with you C3? I'm just curious.

 

[cfultz3]

May I ask the question, what difference does it make? As long as one repents and receives Christ as Lord and savior? Why is it such an issue with you C3? I'm just curious.

Hi Bookends,

My desire is to find only the Truth. It is not an issue per say, it is more of knowing the correct understanding of the relationship between a converting sinner and God.

If it were said that God places the contrite heart into someone so that he may convert, then we would have to take into consideration all the 'whosoevers' found in the New Testament. Meaning: if it were us who come to God with a contrite heart, then God is worshipped willingly. On the other hand, if it were God who had placed the contrite heart into someone, then what does that say of a human? Are we so evil that we cannot even regret being a sinner?

Then we are led to wonder, "why is it so important to know the difference?" From my pondering, it is safe to say that we cannot come to God with split eyesight. A sinner has to take his eyes off from his present lord, the darkness which his eyes are upon, and place them upon the Light singley. We all understand that we cannot have two masters, otherwise we face the consequences of such.

This leds me back to the process of a sinner receiving salvation. Does a sinner, from his heart, by the conviction of the Spirit, convert from their sins themselves and thus, God is freely chosen? Or is a sinner so helpless in their stuggle to be released from their present lord, that the Spirit uses His Godly authority to convert (turn around) the contrite sinner so that he faces the Light? If this last question is true, then who is to say that the sinner really wanted to be converted? Then we are forced to ask if that sinner will continue to sin under the implication that he is so weak towards temptation, that if the Spirit does not come and do a miracleous work, that he will fall to temptation, and thus he, the sinner, is not at fault for turning his eyes away. This can only conclude the matter to say that one can choose when to hearken to the Spirit and the times that he does not is only because he is so weak to even listen to what the Spirit is saying as opposed to what the flesh is saying.

When we continue to ponder, we are led to think upon whether we can willfully continue in sin as long as we ask for forgiveness. But if one is whole-heartly remorsed from his sin, would he continue in it or be willing to suffer in the flesh so that he can overcome sin? etc...............

So, I guess it is an issue, an issue of understanding Truth. Does a heart really have to be contrite or can we fool God into thinking we are sorry so that we can continue upon our past (?) lord's path of living to the flesh or must we really die to the flesh so that we can live to the spirit......


It seems my fingers are in a typing mode, sorry

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa,

I cannot agree with you more, that once someone accepts God, His Spirit leads into paths of righteousness. In this, there is absolutely no questioning about who leads into paths of righteousness.

What I am trying to study is the source of a contrite heart. That is, from that post which summorized what led up to Psa 34:18, since we humans come to a point were we are sorry for our sins by the conviction of the Spirit, does the Spirit inplant that contrite heart as He does when He implates a new heart in those who are in Christ? Or, do we as creatures need to come to God in rependance before we receive salvation?

I lean more to the side where we need to repent before we become a child of God. And if this is true, is it more of a conscience thing more than a spiritual thing, seeing that we are still carnel before we repent and therefore are dead to spiritual (Spiritual) things?

My pondering can go on forever, as you can see, but I hope I have made clear what I am trying to study and look forward to more imput.

You seem to be trying to separate your work from the Lords work.

Your work is weak and pitiful.

His work is perfect.

What is the source of all things that are good in our lives??? That's an easy answer isn't it?

We have to be led by small steps because we can't see very well. Sometimes not at all...

Perhaps you should cease your studying and go straight to the Lord and ask Him?? LOL

Your putting the wrong em-PHASIS on the wrong sy-LLABLE... lol

 

[Skinski7]

Hi Bookends,

My desire is to find only the Truth. It is not an issue per say, it is more of knowing the correct understanding of the relationship between a converting sinner and God.

If it were said that God places the contrite heart into someone so that he may convert, then we would have to take into consideration all the 'whosoevers' found in the New Testament. Meaning: if it were us who come to God with a contrite heart, then God is worshipped willingly. On the other hand, if it were God who had placed the contrite heart into someone, then what does that say of a human? Are we so evil that we cannot even regret being a sinner?

Then we are led to wonder, "why is it so important to know the difference?" From my pondering, it is safe to say that we cannot come to God with split eyesight. A sinner has to take his eyes off from his present lord, the darkness which his eyes are upon, and place them upon the Light singley. We all understand that we cannot have two masters, otherwise we face the consequences of such.

This leds me back to the process of a sinner receiving salvation. Does a sinner, from his heart, by the conviction of the Spirit, convert from their sins themselves and thus, God is freely chosen? Or is a sinner so helpless in their stuggle to be released from their present lord, that the Spirit uses His Godly authority to convert (turn around) the contrite sinner so that he faces the Light? If this last question is true, then who is to say that the sinner really wanted to be converted? Then we are forced to ask if that sinner will continue to sin under the implication that he is so weak towards temptation, that if the Spirit does not come and do a miracleous work, that he will fall to temptation, and thus he, the sinner, is not at fault for turning his eyes away. This can only conclude the matter to say that one can choose when to hearken to the Spirit and the times that he does not is only because he is so weak to even listen to what the Spirit is saying as opposed to what the flesh is saying.

When we continue to ponder, we are led to think upon whether we can willfully continue in sin as long as we ask for forgiveness. But if one is whole-heartly remorsed from his sin, would he continue in it or be willing to suffer in the flesh so that he can overcome sin? etc...............

So, I guess it is an issue, an issue of understanding Truth. Does a heart really have to be contrite or can we fool God into thinking we are sorry so that we can continue upon our past (?) lord's path of living to the flesh or must we really die to the flesh so that we can live to the spirit......


It seems my fingers are in a typing mode, sorry

Cfultz,

You are confronting the issue of "ability" versus "inability."

If man is "unable" to repent and forsake rebellion of his own choosing then it means that he is saved against his will.

If on the other hand man is fully "able" to repent and forsake rebellion of his own choosing then it means he is saved in compliance to his will.

It is no secret that I contend for the latter view.

A common objection raised in regards to the latter view is that such a view denies grace. This was the objection raised against Pelagius by Augustine in the 4th century.

Man having ability does not deny grace for the simple reason that grace has already appeared to all men influencing them in the direction they should go. There is no such thing as righteous conduct done apart from the grace of God simply because it is the light of God which reveals to all men what righteous conduct is. Righteous conduct is simply yielding to the revealed light in the way one should go. It is not a complicated issue in the slightest.

Due to the Reformed School viewing man as not having the ability to turn to God they have been forced to break grace up into different facets, they teach that there is the Common Grace which all men receive but this Common Grace is not sufficient to offset the inability of man to turn to God. The grace that offsets this inability is termed "Irresistible Grace" and this grace is only provided to the Elect.

The entire premise of the Reformed System is to uphold the "Sovereignty of God" at all costs and to deem man any "ability" whatsoever to do the right thing would be taking away from the glory of God in regards to salvation. One of fallacies of this line of thinking is that if man truly is disabled and is in rebellion of necessity then it maligns the character of God for holding men accountable for their rebellion. Logically there is no way around this problem when it is considered head on.

It is true that God is sovereign but not in the sense that the Reformed School teaches it. God is the sovereign JUDGE and the sovereign STANDARD SETTER. God has granted all men the ability to choose as to whether they want to yield to God's standards or live according to their own standards. Due to God being holy and just He cannot let those who reject His standards off the hook.

The Welsleyian side of the church on the other hand teach grace a little bit different in what they call "Prevenient Grace." This is still a grace that offsets the inability of man although the Wesleyian side of the church teaches that this grace is provided to all men. Different pastors teach it in different ways as far as I can maintain, yet they all teach it offsets the inborn sin nature. I do find a contradiction in how this is applied because in my mind an application of Prevenient Grace from an early time in effect cancels out the inborn sin nature and thus I don't know why they bother to hold to it, that is anothe rissue though.

If one holds to the belief that one must get saved FIRST before they can have a contrite heart then it means that a state of salvation and a state of rebellion exist at exactly the same time. I see that you recognise this Cfultz in your allusion about serving two masters. It is a very important point and there is no way to dance around this issue.

If salvation and rebellion coexist then salvation is of a purely forensic and judicial nature. This is why the Penal Substitution view of the atonement fits so well within the context of the modern Gospel. The Penal Substitution view supports the contention that salvation is purely forensic and judicial in application. The deeds done in the body have been disconnected from the state of the soul which means that a good tree bearing good fruit has been rendered null and void.

The truth is the truth and our opinions are inconsequential if they are not in line with the truth. This is why it is very important for every individual to dig deep by seriously studying the Scriptures and doing some serious and prayerful self reflection. We cannot afford to be wrong in regards to the Gospel and what it really is because our souls hang in the balance.

Jesus and all the writers in the New Testament warned of deception. It is prudent that we take those warnings very seriously and are diligent so that we ourselves are not deceived.

It is worth selling everything we have in exchange for the Pearl of Great Price.

 

[cfultz3]

You seem to be trying to separate your work from the Lords work.

Your work is weak and pitiful.

His work is perfect.

What is the source of all things that are good in our lives??? That's an easy answer isn't it?

We have to be led by small steps because we can't see very well. Sometimes not at all...

Perhaps you should cease your studying and go straight to the Lord and ask Him?? LOL

Your putting the wrong em-PHASIS on the wrong sy-LLABLE... lol

So, are you saying that at conversion, we do not need to turn completely away from the darkness, but that we can do it step by step? If the sin of worshiping idols was the sin which kept me in the darkness and was the sin the Spirit was convicting me of, then I can receive conversion as long as I worship false gods less and less? How is it possible for me to have my eyes on two light sources?

 

[Grandpa]

So, are you saying that at conversion, we do not need to turn completely away from the darkness, but that we can do it step by step? If the sin of worshiping idols was the sin which kept me in the darkness and was the sin the Spirit was convicting me of, then I can receive conversion as long as I worship false gods less and less? How is it possible for me to have my eyes on two light sources?

Have to, need to, must...

The Lord is working on you long before you realize you made a "decision" for Him.

There is only one Light. You either walk in the Light as He is in the light or you remain in darkness because your deeds are evil.

You don't walk in the Light because you have somehow made yourself righteous. You walk in the Light because He has made you Righteous.

 

[cfultz3]

You seem to be trying to separate your work from the Lords work.

Your work is weak and pitiful.

His work is perfect.

What is the source of all things that are good in our lives??? That's an easy answer isn't it?

We have to be led by small steps because we can't see very well. Sometimes not at all...

Perhaps you should cease your studying and go straight to the Lord and ask Him?? LOL

Your putting the wrong em-PHASIS on the wrong sy-LLABLE... lol

I know that I cannot make myself righteous before the LORD apart from the Christ. That was never in question. In Him, by obedience to His Voice, I am led to the Light and on the path He leads on, salvation is obtained.

If a contrite heart is a gift from God, then what do you make of all the 'whosoever shall believe' found in the New Testament? I understand that the Spirit convicts all of sin, but not all will convert. Now, if all will not convert by the conviction of the Spirit, then does that not imply that we as beings choose to abandon our past lord for a new Lord? Is it not said that it is our choice to choose either good or evil, either life or death? And if it is our choice, then is it not our choice to be converted and be led no longer by the darkness but by the Light? This leads to the point that if we are given a choice, then we are not so evil, that we cannot even decide our own eternal destination by deciding to follow Christ.