Origins of a Contrite Heart?

tribesman · Jan 11, 2013

He's not listening and he can't see that sinners are truly dead in their sins and totally unable to contribute to their salvation in any way, shape or form.

He mixes the characteristics of the regenerate with the unregenerate. Making the whole issue dependent and conditioned on the work of man.

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

Have to, need to, must... --Is it optional than?

The Lord is working on you long before you realize you made a "decision" for Him. -- Yes, the Spirit works on every single person, seeing that Christ has brought the Light to shine upon all to enlighten them.

There is only one Light. You either walk in the Light as He is in the light or you remain in darkness because your deeds are evil. -- Yes

You don't walk in the Light because you have somehow made yourself righteous. You walk in the Light because He has made you Righteous. -- So, is rependance making one's self righteous, or is rependance telling God the path He desires to lead on will bring everlasting life? How is rependance making one's self righteous? Do we not walk in the Light because we have chosen the Light over the darkness for our eye's light?

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

tribesman said:

I am trying to understand the source of a contrite heart.

I am listening to you*, otherwise I would not be responding to things which veer off from the conversation, or things which do not fit the picture.

Indeed, we are dead in our sins and need a Savior. But to say that we cannot even come to God with a contrite heart which has been brokened down by the conviction of the Spirit, is the same as saying that we are so evil that satan himself has bore us. Does not Scripture say that we are to choose.....Whosoever SHALL believe? When Jesus said, 'Come and follow me', was that a command for one to follow, or was it a suggestion that He will make one come out of the darkness and follow Him? If I am to come, then it must be me who decides to make that first step, otherwise we have a Hitler for a Savior.

It is I who keeps mentioning that those who are regenerated are not being spoken about. I keep mentioning that I am speaking about those who are yet still sinners and still, those who have yet to come to the Light. I am speaking about the children of the rebellion at their converstion. One cannot have God's Spirit within them at the same time being a child of the rebellion, seeing that the Spirit is given to those who are children of God. So, the question remains: when a child of the rebellion comes to the point of being brokened, who decides who that one shall follow? It cannot be the Spirit for the simple fact that would be forced lordship.

The work of the sinner: what work is it to make a decision by a being who was created with a freewill? If the option to believe is not giving, then what of faith being a personal choice?

Skinski7 · Jan 11, 2013

tribesman said:

Being dead in sin does not equal inability.

Those in Nineveh clearly forsook their rebellion and turned back to God. They were not disabled from doing this. God did not force them against their will to do this. He influenced them through the preaching of Noah and through the light revealed in their consciences for sure, thus God initiated the process. Yet that is very different to God mandating the process against their will.

The Prodigal Son was dead in his sins in the pig pen, yet he had the ability to come to his senses and cnage his mind. He also had the ability to leave the pig pen and start walking back to the father. That did not save him! But it did fulfill a condition that God requires before reconciliation take place.

It is through godly sorrow working a genuine repentance that one approaches God, by faith, in order to seek reconciliation. The Scriptures clearly teach this very plainly. It is the doctrines and traditions of men which convolute the simplicity of the repentance message as it relates to a contrite heart.

When one is dead in their sin it means they have been separated from fellowship with God. God cannot fellowship with rebels and even the conscience of a sinner condemns one as guilty before a holy God when all the self deception is stripped away. This condition does not negate the ability to forsake the rebellion through a broken repentance.

God will not reconcile with any person while they remain in their rebellious state. Repentance is absolutely mandatory for reconciliation to take place. The rebellion must cease. The heart of iniquity must be purged.

False theology denies this and teaches that one is reconciled while still in rebellion. It is a mental fiction but it tickles the ears of those who refuse to repent of their wickedness.

Please don't be deceived.

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

To all,

Once we can agree that we turn to God freely, we will continue our study of 'contrite' and how it leads to God's works upon that soul and how that work changes a person who comes to Him with a contrite heart in remorse of their rebellion. But, we must first know that it is we who decide to follow God, inasmuch as we decided to had followed the flesh.

Bookends · Jan 11, 2013

If salvation is completely dependent of what God does in a person's heart, the Spirit making a person repent and believe, then is the unrepentant person really responsible for his/her sins? Or should I ask if that person (a sinner) is responsible for not repenting or believing if it is wholly dependent on God doing it?

Frankly put, I don't understand the mind of God and how he does it. All I know is those who do put their trust and faith in God alone for their salvation, repent authentically and ask Christ to be their Lord and savior, the He will save them. Then those who believe go through a transformation process, some times failing at pleasing God and living righteously, but never to be let go or separated from the love of God. Those who are saved may wonder a bit, but through the chastising of the Father is brought back into a rightful but perhaps an imperfect relationship with Him through the purchasing power of the blood of Jesus Christ.

There maybe/are people out there claiming to be Christians who profess Christ with their lips, but not with their heart, or who do not possess Christ. It is not my job to figure out who these people are, but to edify the help those who struggle in the faith and lift them up to be responsible and accountable people of God. At the same time, be willing myself to to be held accountable for my actions and faith by others in the body of Christ for my own spiritual growth and relationship with God.

I see no more reason why I should continue in this tread, but I encourage you or whom ever to carry on if you think this topic is beneficial to your faith. May God's peace and love fill you all.

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

Bookends said:

If salvation is completely dependent of what God does in a person's heart, the Spirit making a person repent and believe, then is the unrepentant person really responsible for his/her sins? Or should I ask if that person (a sinner) is responsible for not repenting or believing if it is wholly dependent on God doing it?
--Great questioning Bookends. If faith comes by hearing, then the Spirit does not 'make' one believe, but believe comes from a heart which is willing to listen to the Truth. This is said in agreement to all the 'whosoevers' found in the New Testament which implies that one does have a willingness to 'come and follow'. But, on the other hand, salvation is a gift obtained only from God to those who come to believe by the hearing and that hearing comes from the Word of God (the Light which enlightens everyone who comes upon the face of the Earth). Indeed the Spirit convicts, which causes some to repent, much in the same way a father explains to his son that stealing is wrong and the son is convicted by his father's 'words'. But, we know from reality that not all sons will be convicted but some will remain in the same condition and will continue to receive the father's conviction until there is a convertion or death comes.

To imply that an unrepentant person is not responsible for not repenting is the same as saying that the unrepentant sinner is not responsible for his sins. I have read too many of your posts and know that you are not saying this. So, will you please reword it so I can see where you are coming from?

Frankly put, I don't understand the mind of God and how he does it. All I know is those who do put their trust and faith in God alone for their salvation, repent authentically and ask Christ to be their Lord and savior, the He will save them.

-- In reality this is all which is being said by me. We put our trust in God. We put our faith in God for our salvation. We repent. Then just as the Psalmist and you say: Then will He hear your cry and deliver you.

It is indeed a decision which we make. We are giving the ability to decide who our lord is, with each lord leading on its own path: one leads to destruction and the Other leads to Life. But, in the end, we are responsibile for our own decision and therefore, we have the God given ability to choose life or death.

Which then leads back to who makes the decision for a sinner to repent. We are now at the point where a sinner decides life or death? Good or evil? He is there with darkness before him and the Spirit behind him convicting him. 'O, my soul!! Choose you this day whom you will follow. Remain in the pig pen or walk towards the Father in regret of your rebellion. Do you turn your eyes to Him or shall they continue looking upon the darkness which leads to utter eternal darkness." You see Booknotes, we are responsibile for our own decisions (acts). If not, then is God just to judge transgressions?

Then those who believe go through a transformation process, some times failing at pleasing God and living righteously, but never to be let go or separated from the love of God. Those who are saved may wonder a bit, but through the chastising of the Father is brought back into a rightful but perhaps an imperfect relationship with Him through the purchasing power of the blood of Jesus Christ.

-- I can agree that the transformation is a process. But please listen to how I word this: is it possible to live in habitual rebellion and still be in the process of being lead away from the darkness? I would have to say no that we cannot live a habitual life which is in opposition to God's will and still be considered saved from death. The reasoning behind this: can I continue to look upon two masters? Can I continue to look at two light sources for my soul? No!! For a soul to be a son, he, as you have said and as Scripture do say, we must repent and forsake our past life. As long as we do hearken to God, then we are being led to the Light, but if our conscience condemns us and we sear it so that it can comply to our choice, then are we really delivered from our rebellion? Simply, we cannot live in rebellion to God's beckoning. We are either being led by God or being led astray and if we continue to being lead astray in opposition to what the Spirit is saying, by our own choice, have forfeited the Spirit by polluting our temple.

There maybe/are people out there claiming to be Christians who profess Christ with their lips, but not with their heart, or who do not possess Christ. It is not my job to figure out who these people are, but to edify the help those who struggle in the faith and lift them up to be responsible and accountable people of God. At the same time, be willing myself to to be held accountable for my actions and faith by others in the body of Christ for my own spiritual growth and relationship with God. -- Agree. If we are held accoutable for our own actions and faith, then would it not be conclusive to say that we are held responsible for not repenting?

I see no more reason why I should continue in this tread, but I encourage you or whom ever to carry on if you think this topic is beneficial to your faith. May God's peace and love fill you all. -- It is simply a hunger to understand and accept the Truth for what it is, whether it opposses what I believe/ed or not.

..........

Ariel82 · Jan 11, 2013

the source of a contrite heart is God's mercy in one's life to bring about godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mmgV6mPvb0[/video]

side note: Jonah preached to the people of Ninevah not Noah.

Ariel82 · Jan 11, 2013

Bookends said:

yes just because someone can wash you clean doesn't mean you are not responsible for jumping into the mud pit in the first place and staining your white clothes.

??? the sinner is responsible for not repenting or believing and if God through His mercy stretches His hand and lifts them out of the filth and mess they and all of humanity have made of this world than it is because of His love that does it. It is pride to think anything good can be accomplished without God moving in the world.

God brings order to chaos, He brings Law to those who are lawless. He brings Light to the darkness. He brings redemption to the repentant sinner.

The origins of a contrite heart is found in the mercy of God and His Love.

Bookends · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

..........
Originally Posted by Bookends

Black=my original post.
Purple= Cfultz response to my OP
Green=my promised unresponse response. Forgive me.

If salvation is completely dependent of what God does in a person's heart, the Spirit making a person repent and believe, then is the unrepentant person really responsible for his/her sins? Or should I ask if that person (a sinner) is responsible...
--Great questioning Bookends. If faith comes by hearing, then the Spirit does not 'make' one believe, but believe comes from a heart which is willing to listen to the Truth. This is said in agreement to all the 'whosoevers' found in the New Testament which implies that one does have a willingness to 'come and follow'. Great point!! if salvation was fixed or dependent upon the Spirit only then their would be no need to hear. But hearing is not only about physically hearing, but more importantly hearing spiritually; which is understanding what is being communicated, which often came in parable. But, on the other hand, salvation is a gift obtained only from God to those who come to believe by the hearing and that hearing comes from the Word of God (the Light which enlightens everyone who comes upon the face of the Earth). Indeed the Spirit convicts, which causes some to repent, much in the same way a father explains to his son that stealing is wrong and the son is convicted by his father's 'words'. But, we know from reality that not all sons will be convicted but some will remain in the same condition and will continue to receive the father's conviction until there is a convertion or death comes. I agree. But I don't understand what causes one to respond to rebuke while the other doesn't. Both have sin, why is one man's heart hardened and the another's heart softened? To me, this is a mystery. God's word is so obviously true to me, but to my step son it's merely someone's writings (no mater how much proof is shown that God's word is divine). Since I can't wrap my mind around it, I'm not going to force an explanation for it. If one comes through biblical revelation that would be great, however I just find it important enough seek the answer. For there are some things, knowledge, that belongs to God, and are not meant to be known my man.

To imply that an unrepentant person is not responsible for not repenting is the same as saying that the unrepentant sinner is not responsible for his sins. I have read too many of your posts and know that you are not saying this. So, will you please reword it so I can see where you are coming from? Right, I wasn't saying that I believe the unrepentant sinner is not responsible for His sins, for Romans 1:20 says the exact opposite. Therefore, by stating what I said, I am implying that man is not doomed from the womb, and that God gives everyone the ability to receive light and truth. Everybody has this pilot light in them up until they die, which is snuffed out by the Lord if they reject the gospel all their life. So yes, I'm implying that man makes a choice in this regard only because God grants this choice to us.

Frankly put, I don't understand the mind of God and how he does it. All I know is those who do put their trust and faith in God alone for their salvation...

-- In reality this is all which is being said by me. We put our trust in God. We put our faith in God for our salvation. We repent. Then just as the Psalmist and you say: Then will He hear your cry and deliver you.

It is indeed a decision which we make. We are giving the ability to decide who our lord is, with each lord leading on its own path: one leads to destruction and the Other leads to Life. But, in the end, we are responsibile for our own decision and therefore, we have the God given ability to choose life or death.

Agreed

Which then leads back to who makes the decision for a sinner to repent. Which is what I don't necessarily care to know, it's a mystery of God. Sure, we make the choice, the real question is WHY? Why some do and some don't...

We are now at the point where a sinner decides life or death? Good or evil? He is there with darkness before him and the Spirit behind him convicting him. 'O, my soul!! Choose you this day whom you will follow. Remain in the pig pen or walk towards the Father in regret of your rebellion. Do you turn your eyes to Him or shall they continue looking upon the darkness which leads to utter eternal darkness." You see Booknotes, we are responsibile for our own decisions (acts). If not, then is God just to judge transgressions?

Agreed.

Then those who believe go through a transformation process, some times failing at pleasing God and living righteously, but never to be let go or separated from the love of God. Those who are saved may wonder a bit, but through the chastising of the Father is brought back into a rightful but perhaps an imperfect relationship with Him through the purchasing power of the blood of Jesus Christ.

-- I can agree that the transformation is a process. But please listen to how I word this: is it possible to live in habitual rebellion and still be in the process of being lead away from the darkness? No!!! This would be called a spurious faith as opposed to a true faith. I would have to say no that we cannot live a habitual life which is in opposition to God's will and still be considered saved from death. Agreed. The reasoning behind this: can I continue to look upon two masters? Can I continue to look at two light sources for my soul? No!! For a soul to be a son, he, as you have said and as Scripture do say, we must repent and forsake our past life. As long as we do hearken to God, then we are being led to the Light, but if our conscience condemns us and we sear it so that it can comply to our choice, then are we really delivered from our rebellion? Simply, we cannot live in rebellion to God's beckoning I would add all our earthly life, because I believe a saved person can be rebellion for a period of time if one had a true conversion.. God will bring this prodigal back.This was my personal experience and I have talk with many Christians who experienced this. This is debatable I guess in which I don't care to get int). But yes I agree with you regarding the unsaved person. If they live their whole life in rebellion, die in their sin, they are lost. We are either being led by God or being led astray and if we continue to being lead astray in opposition to what the Spirit is saying, by our own choice, have forfeited the Spirit by polluting our temple. This the issue we have, are we talking about the saved or unsaved? You believe one can loose their salvation, I don't. If a person who says they are saved but continues to be led astray then I would call that person has a false faith, a professing faith, but not a possessing faith. God for this person is just a life insurance policy, not a life long relationship.

There maybe/are people out there claiming to be Christians who profess Christ with their lips, but not with their heart, or who do not possess Christ. It is not my job to figure out who these people are, but to edify the help those who struggle in the faith and lift them up to be responsible and accountable people of God. At the same time, be willing myself to to be held accountable for my actions and faith by others in the body of Christ for my own spiritual growth and relationship with God. -- Agree. If we are held accoutable for our own actions and faith, then would it not be conclusive to say that we are held responsible for not repenting? Yes

I see no more reason why I should continue in this tread, but I encourage you or whom ever to carry on if you think this topic is beneficial to your faith. May God's peace and love fill you all. -- It is simply a hunger to understand and accept the Truth for what it is, whether it opposses what I believe/ed or not.
I appreciate your hunger, and i have no reason not to consider you a brother. This debate however, has gone on since the Church began and I don't see the importance of at this time of my life. It seems rather a distraction. Nothing against you brother C, perhaps you need to come to an understanding of it for yourself, and not to persuade others over to your view (in which I have been guilty of)...For me,simply put I spent enough time on it to satisfy my curiosity, which is God is the only one who understands the heart of men.

.............

zone · Jan 11, 2013

Skinski7 said:

so, i am compelled to ask again....since you were not reconciled to God in your rebellious state, why did you spend so many years hammering ppl with this same doctrine you preach today, as though you WERE saved...please answer this scott so i may understand your ideas more clearly.

Grandpa · Jan 11, 2013

Ariel82 said:

Whatever... lol... lets not confuse the issue with facts...!!!

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

Ariel82 said:

First of all, thank you for replying and helping not only me to seek further knowledge of Truth, but helping others by planting a seed of hunger for further studying.

To all: And before I go any further, I would like to explain the way I reply to posts. It is not to say you are wrong and I am right, it is simple a pondering process I go through after having read a post. I guess one could say that it is thought confined to Scripture. If it veers off, then I figure out how to get it back in line to Scripture and oftentimes, it is in a form of a question to be answered by the person I replied to.

with this in mind, the following pondering is to be thought upon with the thought of keeping it within the confinements of Scripture.

Ariel,

With the understanding that 'source/from' means the point where a thing originates: If you are saying that God, through His convicting Spirit, with emphasize on 'convicting', is what causes a child of the rebellion to reconsider his eternal destination, I am in total agreement. It is certainly God's desire to have all come to a saving knowledge and because of which, Christ has brought the Light which shines upon every man who enters into this world as a testimony to that desire.

I have but this one question: when a child of the rebellion (not one who is a child of God yet) comes to this deciding factor of whom he shall follow: is that decision willfully made by him as an entity of freewill?

But, on the other hand, are you saying that God forms the contrite heart in a person? Meaning that God is the source of one's remorse? If this is what you are saying, may I ask where does remorse of wrongful living comes from when a child of the rebellion decides that (place a sin here) is no longer something to live for and decides to change his ways, with no intentions of ever repenting to God but only to his conscience? Did his repentance come from God or a guilty conscience?

Again, on the other hand, repentance of living sinfully against God is brought about by the conviction of the Spirit. But, if that person in the last paragraph had decided from a guilty conscience to follow a new path, it is well said that he had made that decision to repent of a 'wrongful lifestyle' and so-called credit is giving to him for having a change of mind. If such an one is said to have change his ways, why is it not acceptable to say that one who is under the spiritual conviction of God has changed his mind in following after the flesh and decided to follow after the footsteps of his Savior?

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

Black=my (Bookends) original post.
Purple= Cfultz response to my OP
Green=my promised unresponse response. Forgive me.

From my understanding, if there is but one Spirit who convicts and one hearkens and the other does not, then I am led to believe that we are therefore free willed beings who makes that choice to obey or not obey. This by no means discredits the Spirit in His work of convicting, but by all means, it does point to a conclusion that the decision is not a forced decision but one made with full acknowledgement.

Bookends, I know that I sound like a broken record, but if you would, while thinking upon this, take into consideration how it was us who abandoned the relationship with God in the Garden and not He. Then, it is us who need to re-approach Him for the reconciliation which He offers through His Son's death and resurrection. It is like the cheating spouse who needs to appraoch the offended for a reconcilation, forgiveness is offered to those who seeks it. If forgivenss is to be had, then we need to come to Him in remorse of our cheating heart (soul). Is it not the cheating spouse who needs to be remorsed by the offended conviction of guilt? To this, I can only say, 'I cried unto the LORD and He delivered me. O God, my God, unto you and you alone have I sinned and done this evil in your sight.' (The pled of a remorsed heart is the sacrifice God seeks (next verse study). And what great works He does to a remorsed soul).

Ariel82 · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

lol that made me laugh for some reason.

a thoughtful thought to think upon in response to the thought you thoughtfully posted responding to the previously thought of thought...

ok now to read the rest

ok we're in agreement so far....

free will is overrated. an individual's will is never free it is harnessed to the mind which is shaped by previous experiences and the heart and spirit of an individual.

yes, God forms the contrite heart in a person through causing them to have godly sorrow in their life and He shows them how they are not walking in His will and how they need to repent.

if he repents only to his conscience and not to God then it most likely was formed from worldly pressures that is focused upon the worldly idea of "karma" or whatever name you want to call it where the "law" states the whole eye for an eye, good for those who do good, evil for those who do evil cause and effect sequence without thought or honor given to God. not sure if that made sense but we can discuss it more if you like...

???

"given credit"? he might have repented of a "wrongful lifestyle" but he is still an unbeliever and not saved for he did not follow God but his own flesh and will most likely be lead into another sinful error because he is not being lead by the Spirit but his flesh. this would be an example of false piety and is not the same as saying that the Spirit lead one to repentance at all.

you can say that "one who is under the spiritual conviction of God has changed his mind in following after the flesh and decided to follow after the footsteps of his Savior" as long as you recognized it was by the SPIRIT and by the mercy and grace of God he was able to do so.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Ariel82 · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

yes the cheating spouse must be remorsful but also know that her husband still loves and cherishes and forgives her and is willing to wash her clean, that would be the gospel message.

that people are sinfully dirty and need to be washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.

cfultz3 · Jan 11, 2013

Ariel82 said:

What I am trying to point out is not the full Gospel, but that it is the child of the rebellion who needs to approach God and not God who needs to approach the one who rebelled, God remained (remains) faithful in that fellowship.

It is true that the Spirit convicts all of sin, but it is that rebellious one who needs to accept the condition of repentance as being a prerequisite of forgiveness, seeing that forgivenss is given to those seeking it.

Skinski7 · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

You are right on Cfultz!

That is EXACTLY the purpose of repentance.

One of the greatest fallacies taught today is that one can approach God and actually be reconciled whilst still in rebellion. The brokenness of repentance brings forth the fruit of the rebellion actually ceasing (the death of the old man), thus the repentant sinner is no longer double-minded and can actually receive the implanted word which can save their soul.

Hence a true believer does not fashion himself according to his FORMER LUSTS but rather yields themselves unto righteousness which gives birth to holiness.

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Bookends · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

I don't disagree with what you say. But could we say that it is God who opens the eyes of the repentant? And only then at this point an individual is enabled to exercise his/her will to repent? What else could be the difference between two types of people? I was not less sinful then the other guy who didn't and/or never will repent. After all God did make everyone on of us, He is the potter and we are the clay, He knows us in our mother's womb. There is just an aspect of all this that is above human understanding.

I don't feel comfortable saying that it was God and myself in which brought me to salvation, or that it's because I repented. Regardless of how it happens, I"ll give the Lord all the credit. I'm probably confusing to you because now I'm sounded more like a predestinationist. Do you ever catch yourself praying for friends, family members, co-workers or anybody really, asking God to save them, asking God to change their heart? But yet sometimes we believe that God doesn't go that far to save us. Perhaps God plays a greater role in saving individuals then we think.

It's not my hearts desire to figure out how we get there, or how we got here (to the point of repentance and salvation), but what we do once we get there.

Bookends · Jan 11, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Did Saul approach God? or did God approach Saul, later to renamed Paul?

Did Jesus approach the disciples? or did the disciples approach Him?

Did God call Abram out of UR, or was Abram seeking God and a new way of life?

Origins of a Contrite Heart?

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