OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[SarahM777]

I believe the Tax Collector was more justified than the Pharisee. The thief on the cross was indeed saved. I believe both Samson and Solomon were saved. But these men's lives are not the standard of Godliness that a man of God is supposed to live. For Godliness means one has God abiding within them. The Scriptures say in,

1 Peter 4:18
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

Can you please explain why Paul never in 1 Corinthians ever rebukes their FAITH and does not say they are not saved or belonging to Christ DESPITE all the things were doing? (1 Corinthians 6 is dealing with specifics) Yet Paul does rebuke the Galatians for falling away from grace.

If one does not sin then why though out the epistles we are told to put off things

Ephesians 4

[SUP]20 [/SUP]That, however, is not the way of life you learned [SUP]21 [/SUP]when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. [SUP]22 [/SUP]You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; [SUP]23 [/SUP]to be made new in the attitude of your minds; [SUP]24 [/SUP]and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. [SUP]26 [/SUP]“In your anger do not sin”[SUP][d][/SUP]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and do not give the devil a foothold. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Colossians 3

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices [SUP]10 [/SUP]and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.


James 1

[SUP]19 [/SUP]My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, [SUP]20 [/SUP]because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

1 Peter 1,2


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]23 [/SUP]For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
1Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, [SUP]3 [/SUP]now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

By the way 1 Peter 1 goes INTO 1 Peter 2. So how does you reconcile those passages?

 

[Jason0047]

I read your take on the parable of the wedding feast, Jason.

Sort of agree.
Sort of don't.

So you believe the righteousness of the saints involves no works or holiness by God in the believers life? That they are not being conformed to the image of the Son? Revelation 19:8 says the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. This would mean they kept themselves holy. For towards the end of Revelation, we read this,

Revelation 22:11
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."

 

[Jason0047]

Dear SarahM777:

I do not have the time to give you a proper reply because I am on my phone and I am busy. But as for Corinthians: please read 2nd Corinthians 7, 12, and 13.

 

[sparkman]

This view you're presenting is Pelagianism/Finneyism and it's heretical. It is also associated with Moral Government Theology.

Jesse Morrell amongst others are proclaiming Charles Finney's teachings.

It strips the guts right out of the gospel message, and denies core teachings of Evangelical Christianity. Original sin, moral inability, justification by faith alone, imputed or forensic righteousness and penal substitutionary atonement are all denied by these heresies. It also logically leads to sinless perfectionism if the person is consistent in their theology.

The funny thing is that these people who hold this view say the nastiest, most vile things to people they are supposedly "evangelizing" and yet declare their sinlessness.

They remind me very much of the Pharisee in this parable:

Luke 18: [SUP]9 [/SUP]He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[SUP][a][/SUP] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I have seen the vileness of people who hold this theology, and it is astounding that they consider themselves to be sinless.

OSAS is merely a symptom of a much greater deception and that deception is the lie of "abstract salvation."

Abstract or positional salvation is a view resultant of the teaching of Original Sin.

Original Sin teaches that human beings are born in a state where they CANNOT obey God. Thus "sin we will and sin we must." This in turn redefines "grace" into being an "offset to inability."

Grace is not an offset to inability, grace is simply God's drawing upon the hearts of people when influencing them the way they ought to go, an influence given freely and with long suffering despite the rebellion of people.

When people view grace as an "inability offset" then "repentance" is redefined to be a mere "confession of sinfulness," a confession of inability. Thus people are deceived into a "wait upon God to change me" attitude. The Penal Substitution doctrine then provides the the "meanwhile cloak" for the ongoing state of manifest wickedness whilst people "wait on God" for they are a "work in progress."

All this is an ingenious and diabolical deception wrought by Satan and his ministers who appear as ministers of righteousness.

The vast majority of professing Christianity is enslaved totally to this delusion and this explains why they simply cannot deal with any notion of "escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust" as well as deny that repentance brings about the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires.

God literally and manifestly saves us from wickedness. God literally and manifestly saves us from sin. Salvation is real and powerful. God is not weak. God really saves people.

This notion of being saved and left in a wretches state is such foolishness. Paul's writings are butchered beyond belief by these people. It is not a slight error but the very work of Satan in our midst.

Satan is a roaring lion, not a kitty cat.

 

[Sirk]

What's really striking to me is that those here who profess to have it all figured out, the strongest faith, no sin etc etc...are the very same ones who are terrible at listening to others and have a glaring lack of empathy for others. For me, this is a huge tell that these people are afraid because underneath the big blustery rhetoric of how good they are is poor little ole heart that is weak in faith....it's idolatry in its most deceptive manifestation.

 

[sparkman]

I have already provided 1 John 3:15 as proof that suicide is a sin. However, if you are looking for 2-3 more verses, here is an article on the subject.

Where does the Bible say suicide is a sin?

Suppose a Christian suffers a mental breakdown and kills himself....does he lose his salvation? By the way, Samson in effect committed suicide when he knocked the pillars down on himself and the Philistines yet he is listed in the faith chapter of Hebrews 11.

I agree it is generally a sin to commit suicide, but so are many other things. I definitely wouldn't tell a person who claimed to have faith to commit suicide, but nor do I think anyone who is a real believer loses his salvation. The human mind is affected by the Fall too, and sometimes believers do irrational things, just like anyone else.

 

[Pumicestone]

It just seems so strange to an uncommitted truth-seeker
that Christians cannot even agree on something as basic as the means of salvation.

 

[Sirk]

No one who has any degree of mental health going on would wonder how much they could get away with without crossing the line and going to hell. Such speculation about losing salvation is foolishness. We are in a covenant relationship and it's not about what we can "get" or "not get" out of the deal. It's about faith, hope and love.......and trust.

 

[Sirk]

Maybe people can agree on the definition of "covenant". It's pretty clear what it means to enter into one.

 

[Jason0047]

Here's the interesting question..where did you get your theology?

Would you consider Charles Finney a good source of information?

I'm just wondering if you've read his positions on these sorts of things. He is a major cause of the issues with churches today in many ways. As RC Sproul has stated, he out-Pelagianized Pelagius. He created such a vacuum concerning theology that four major cults were borne within 250 miles of his center of influence....Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism, Christian Science and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Finney was a heretic who denied penal substitutionary atonement, justification by faith alone, imputed or acquired righteousness, moral inability and original sin. His position caused many to believe in sinless perfectionism (the ones who were consistent with it). Of course he rejected eternal security for the believer..he basically believed that you had to become righteous to be accounted righteous in God's sight.

Reading his teachings is like drinking from the toilet bowl in my opinion.

In my many years of discussing against OSAS:
I have come to discover that there are 4 different schools of thought concerning OSAS.

1. Classic OSAS:
You can live like the devil and still be saved (Ignoring any or all moral laws).
(I have talked with folks at TOL (Theology Online) who believes this and I have talked with one guy in person who believes it, too).

2. Mid Range OSAS:
One must generally live a holy life, but one or two unrepentant sins and then dying in those sins does not mean you are not saved.
(I believe most here holds to this view but the jury is still out on any final or complete analysis).
(For some here have even said you can commit suicide and still be saved. Like.... what?).

3. OSAS Lite:
One must be holy and righteous in order to be once saved always saved; If not, one was never born again. This is also false.
(Granted, I can call these individuals my brothers and sisters because they do not condone a sinful lifestyle or make any excuse for sin; However, it is still a false teaching, though).

4. Not OSAS (But it is hard to tell that they are not OSAS) type people:
This group claims they do not believe in OSAS but they hold to many of the beliefs pushed by OSAS proponents. They often side more with the OSAS proponents and they very rarely do not side with the Biblical Conditionalist.

If you want to talk about the fruits of OSAS.

1. George Sodini.
This man was the poster child for OSAS and he turned out to be a mass murderer.
So basically if you listened to this guy and was like.... Yeah, go Sodini, go Sodini. Preach the Word. Rightly divide! Oh, wait.... what did he do?
GEORGE SODINI

2. Former OSAS Proponent Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

3. Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

4. A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

5. Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony
(In fact, most all OSAS propnents I have talked with have claimed that it is impossible to stop sinning; In fact, one person here has claimed it is heresy for a believer to say that we can stop sinning; Like doing good is somehow evil now? Whaaaat?)

 

[Sirk]

In my many years of discussing against OSAS:
I have come to discover that there are 4 different schools of thought concerning OSAS.

1. Classic OSAS:
You can live like the devil and still be saved (Ignoring any or all moral laws).
(I have talked with folks at TOL (Theology Online) who believes this and I have talked with one guy in person who believes it, too).

2. Mid Range OSAS:
One must generally live a holy life, but one or two unrepentant sins and then dying in those sins does not mean you are not saved.
(I believe most here holds to this view but the jury is still out on any final or complete analysis).
(For some here have even said you can commit suicide and still be saved. Like.... what?).

3. OSAS Lite:
One must be holy and righteous in order to be once saved always saved; If not, one was never born again. This is also false.
(Granted, I can call these individuals my brothers and sisters because they do not condone a sinful lifestyle or make any excuse for sin; However, it is still a false teaching, though).

4. Not OSAS (But it is hard to tell that they are not OSAS) type people:
This group claims they do not believe in OSAS but they hold to many of the beliefs pushed by OSAS proponents. They often side more with the OSAS proponents and they very rarely do not side with the Biblical Conditionalist.

If you want to talk about the fruits of OSAS.

1. George Sodini.
This man was the poster child for OSAS and he turned out to be a mass murderer.
So basically if you listened to this guy and was like.... Yeah, go Sodini, go Sodini. Preach the Word. Rightly divide! Oh, wait.... what did he do?
GEORGE SODINI

2. Former OSAS Proponent Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

3. Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

4. A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

5. Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony
(In fact, most all OSAS propnents I have talked with have claimed that it is impossible to stop sinning; In fact, one person here has claimed it is heresy for a believer to say that we can stop sinning; Like doing good is somehow evil now? Whaaaat?)

Jason....what is a covenant?

 

[Jason0047]

Suppose a Christian suffers a mental breakdown and kills himself....does he lose his salvation?

If a believer had gotten in an accident and had serious brain injury whereby they could no longer tell right from wrong or not much of anything anymore because their brain function does not allow them to have the same choice as you and me, then .... no. The choice is taken from them and they are set free from any guilt doing wrong because they have no idea what right or wrong would be anymore. But.... if they know what right and wrong is.... and they choose to do the wrong .... like committing suicide.... then they are most definitely 100% not saved. Judas committed suicide and he was not saved. He was called the son of perdition. How do we know? 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Everyone knows suicide is self murder. So no. A person who commits suicide would not have eternal life abiding in them because they are a murderer (i.e. they are a murderer of their own life).

By the way, Samson in effect committed suicide when he knocked the pillars down on himself and the Philistines yet he is listed in the faith chapter of Hebrews 11.

Yes, Samson was saved. Howevever, Samson DID NOT commit suicide. For do you think Samson could have taken down those pillars without God? No, sir. Hence, which is the reason why Samson did not commit suicide. Samson prayed to God to give Him strength to destroy his enemies. So It was up to God to decide if Samson's life was at an end or not. I mean, God could have easily protect Samson's life as he took down the pillars. He could have sent angels and or made him as invulnerable as superman. The fact that God answered his prayer by giving Samson the strength to take down those pillars shows that it was God taking His life and not Samson. If God said... nope. Not going to answer your prayer. What do you think would have happened? Well, he wouldn't have been able to take down those pillars I can guarantee you that. In other words, it was God taking down those pillars and it was God who chose to end Samson's life. Samson did not throw himself off a cliff or run himself threw with a sword without God's approval. In fact, I hightly doubt God would allow him to do such a thing because it is self centered. Samson wanted justice but he was willing to pray to the Lord to get that justice.

I agree it is generally a sin to commit suicide, but so are many other things.

There are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins that lead unto death would be the many sins that Paul lists several times in the New Testament that will cause a person not to inherit the Kingdom of God. John even lists these sins, too. He says in Revelation 21:8 that these sins will lead to.... the 2nd DEATH (Which is the Lake of Fire).

Sins that do not lead unto death would be hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12) and or sins that are confessed (1 John 1:9).

I definitely wouldn't tell a person who claimed to have faith to commit suicide,

Because.... you know it's wrong deep down and it is a sin

but nor do I think anyone who is a real believer loses his salvation.

It's not what we think. What does God's Word say? The Scriptures say if you destroy the Temple then God will destroy you in Corinthians.

The human mind is affected by the Fall too, and sometimes believers do irrational things, just like anyone else.

No. Read Ezekiel 36:26-27. A believer is changed spiritually and they have God living within them. They are without excuse at a Judgement for doing wrong or sinful things. Hence, that is the reason why there is a Judgment.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason....what is a covenant?

A covenant is a contract or an agreemnent made between two parties. God made a Covenant with Israel in the Old Covenant and God made a Covenant with a new type of believer when the Lord Jesus Christ died upon the cross (Thereby instituting a New Covenant). This Covenant was not an agreement that man could sin and still be saved, though. God is holy and just. He would never allow for an OSAS type belief to take place (Beause it leads to immorality). For that would be like a parent allow their child to do evil or sin. The parent would be just as responsible for allowing their child to do wrong.

 

[Sirk]

A covenant is a contract or an agreemnent made between two parties. God made a Covenant with Israel in the Old Covenant and God made a Covenant with a new type of believer when the Lord Jesus Christ died upon the cross (Thereby instituting a New Covenant). This Covenant was not an agreement that man could sin and still be saved, though. God is holy and just. He would never allow for an OSAS type belief to take place (Beause it leads to immorality). For that would be like a parent allow their child to do evil or sin. The parent would be just as responsible for allowing their child to do wrong.

There you go putting your personal spin on the fact that Christs blood sealed the new covenant and whoever believes, trusts, put their faith in Him will have everlasting life and won't go out murdering puppies and kitties with willful abandon but will still have unknown unconfessed sin in their lives and will still go to be with jesus in heaven. Pull your head out and stop with the non sequitur obsessive compulsive self righteous desire to prove yourself right and worthy and a man of great faith and just step into jesus perfect peace and mercy. Fer cryin in a bucket dude. There is medication for ocd.

 

[Jason0047]

Mop

There you go putting your personal spin on the fact that Christs blood sealed the new covenant and whoever believes, trusts, put their faith in Him will have everlasting life and won't go out murdering puppies and kitties with willful abandon but will still have unknown unconfessed sin in their lives and will still go to be with jesus in heaven. Pull your head out and stop with the non sequitur obsessive compulsive self righteous desire to prove yourself right and worthy and a man of great faith and just step into jesus perfect peace and mercy. Fer cryin in a bucket dude. There is medication for ocd.

Not sure why you think doing a little bit of evil is different than doing alot of evil. Doesn't make any sense to me. If one does evil, whether it be a little bit of evil or alot, they are still both working evil.

 

[Sirk]

A covenant is a contract or an agreemnent made between two parties. God made a Covenant with Israel in the Old Covenant and God made a Covenant with a new type of believer when the Lord Jesus Christ died upon the cross (Thereby instituting a New Covenant). This Covenant was not an agreement that man could sin and still be saved, though. God is holy and just. He would never allow for an OSAS type belief to take place (Beause it leads to immorality). For that would be like a parent allow their child to do evil or sin. The parent would be just as responsible for allowing their child to do wrong.

One thing I wanna say about you Jason is that the more I observe you here on this site it really looks like you have an innocence about you that is very uncommon in this world. whether you have been sheltered from the world and have not been exposed to the terrible wounding that goes on with many many people and the years and years of the rough slog through the healing process it takes for some... Or you have been wounded and Jesus healed you completely...in either case...PRAISE JESUS!!! But AND a big but...is that your walk isnt my walk and my walk isn't yours. Only jesus walked in both of our shoes and only jesus will decide whether or not to say....well done my good and faithful servant.

 

[Jason0047]

Amos 3:3 NIV
Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?

 

[Sirk]

Amos 3:3 NIV
Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?

Even jesus unwound and had fun with his peeps man....went fishing... probably or had dirt clod wars with garbage can lids...who knows...But I dare say that his whole life didn't revovle around being cryptic and obtuse 24/7/365

 

[Jason0047]

Dear SarahM777:

Okay. I looked at the other verses you posted. Well, actually those are the type of verses I would quote and highlight to the believer who thinks they can sin and still be saved. Not sure what you are trying to say by your quoting of such verses.

 

[Jason0047]

Even jesus unwound and had fun with his peeps man....went fishing... probably or had dirt clod wars with garbage can lids...who knows...But I dare say that his whole life didn't revovle around being cryptic and obtuse 24/7/365

Accordinding to the Scriptures: Jesus spoke in parables. Jesus caught fishes. I am not really sure what you are trying to say that is different than what the Bible says.