OSAS= House Built on Sand

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KALYNA18

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2016
1,498
300
83
Salvation is of the Lord, but we sill need to repent and believe.

I would not call repentance and belief "nothing."
amen. I noticed there's over 100 x given by meginoname. To give your post and others and mine a negative on the word of God. This is going agaisnt the words of the Lord. Not a good thing to go up against.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
amen. I noticed there's over 100 x given by meginoname. To give your post and others and mine a negative on the word of God. This is going agaisnt the words of the Lord. Not a good thing to go up against.

meginoname?


I'm nonamemcgee and I've disagreed with you when you made false conclusions of the bible... a few moments ago

but I liked that post you quoted from magenta... she, like me agrees with eternal security


which you were speaking against when I disagreed with your doctrine


(also I only gave two red x's to you...and 90 in total since red x's came to cc)
 
Dec 29, 2018
74
40
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Being Submissive/ Faithful/Obedient To Him= Accurate

Just Believe/Accept Him as Saviour= Bad Translation in English

(Tranlations are mine from the Greek.
*All 41 occurrences of the Greek phrase
πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν
are listed below in context)​

Part I
Mat 18:6 ὅς δ᾿ ἂν σκανδαλίσῃ ἕνα τῶν μικρῶν τούτων τῶν πιστευόντων εἰς ἐμέ, συμφέρει αὐτῷ ἵνα κρεμασθῇ μύλος ὀνικὸς εἰς τὸν τράχηλον αὐτοῦ καὶ καταποντισθῇ ἐν τῷ πελάγει τῆς θαλάσσης.
Mat 18:6 “Whoever should cause one of these little ones who are continually submissive and faithful to me to sin, it is better for him that a millstone of a donkey be tied around his neck and he be submerged in the depth of the open sea.” (repeated in Mk 9:42)

Joh 1:12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα Θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
Joh 1:12 As many people that received him, he gave to them the privilege to become children of God—to the ones that are continually submissive and obedient to his authority.

Joh 2:11 Ταύτην ἐποίησε ἀρχὴν τῶν σημείων ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐν Κανὰ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐφανέρωσε τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miraculous signs Yahshua performed in Cana of Galilee and he manifested his splendor. And his disciples were submissive to him.

Joh 2:23 ῾Ως δὲ ἦν τοῖς ῾Ιεροσολύμοις ἐν τῷ πάσχα ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ, πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, θεωροῦντες αὐτοῦ τὰ σημεῖα ἃ ἐποίει.
Joh 2:23 While he was in Jerusalem during the festival of the Passover, many people were submissive to his authority as they were seeing the miracles that he did.

Joh 3:14 καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσε τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
Joh 3:15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Jn 3:14-16 “And in the same way that Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, it is necessary for the Son of Humanity likewise to be lifted up, in order that everyone who is continually faithful and submissive to him should not be destroyed, but instead, possess age-abiding Life. Because God in this manner was lovingly-devoted to the cosmos: to the point that he gave his one-of-a-kind son, in order that every person who is constantly submissive and obedient to him might not be destroyed, but instead possess age-abiding Life.”

Joh 3:18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται, ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται, ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ μονογενοῦς Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ.
Joh 3:18 “The one who is obedient to him is not judged; but the one who is not faithful is already judged, because he has not been submissive to the authority of the unique-in-kind son of God.

Joh 3:36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν Υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ Υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ᾿ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν.
Joh 3:36 The person who is submissively being obedient to the son possesses age-abiding Life; but the person who is being disobedient to the son will not see Life. Instead, the wrath of God is remaining on top of him.

Joh 4:39 ᾿Εκ δὲ τῆς πόλεως ἐκείνης πολλοὶ ἐπίστευσαν εἰς αὐτὸν τῶν Σαμαριτῶν διὰ τὸν λόγον τῆς γυναικὸς, μαρτυρούσης ὅτι εἶπέ μοι πάντα ὅσα ἐποίησα.
Joh 4:39 Many people of the Samaritans from that city became faithful to him on account of the statement of the woman who testified, “He told me everything that I have done!”

Joh 6:29 ἀπεκρίθη ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· τοῦτό ἐστι τὸ ἔργον τοῦ Θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύσητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος.
Joh 6:29 Yahshua answered and told them, “This is the 'work of God': that you should be submissive and faithful to the person that he sent!

Joh 6:35 εἶπε δὲ αὐτοῖς ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς· ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ, καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ διψήσει πώποτε.
Joh 6:35 Yahshua told them, “I am Life's Bread. The person constantly approaching me will never be hungry, and the person being consistantly submissive and faithful to me will not ever be thirsty.”

Joh 6:40 τοῦτο δὲ ἐστι τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πέμψαντός με, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.
Joh 6:40 “This is the intention of the one who sent me: in order that everyone who is constantly looking to the son, and being always submissive and faithful to him, may have age-abiding Life. And I will resurrect him in the Last Day.”

(Part II next)
Since God is outside of time and He knows who will truly follow Him why would He save someone He knows will only follow for a season then walk away?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
In these discussions let us ask ... is this really going to be an issue with the vast majority of us?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
In these discussions let us ask ... is this really going to be an issue with the vast majority of us?
I would say not a salvation issue but more how can we hear God aright?

Many times it boils down to the word repent. Can we repent if God does not first turn us towards him.

Romans 3 says no one understands God not seen, no one of their own volition could seek after Him .

I think in all cases he must to the first works giving us the ears to hears.... turning us towards Him so then after being turned we can obey the commandment to believe.

Jerimiah 31 seem to be the clearest definition as to who does the first work as our first love in knowing his voice.the voice that cause us to return again and again when and if we do deny Him.

Jeremiah 31:18-19 King James Version (KJV) I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
I would say not a salvation issue but more how can we hear God aright?
And that's a curious question. You and I both serve the same God, the God of Abraham, We both follow Christ, and seek the same Holy Spirit. We both read the same Bible and the same commentaries and resources. Yet we come to such different conclusions. You don't think I hear God right, and I know you don't (just kidding lol!). Who's to decide who's right? Who's to say we're not both wrong?

But here's something to consider ... what gain is there in pursuing 10 pages worth of arguments for, what is it now, 141 pages? Is there anything to be gained by this endless repetition? Especially over a subject that's not going to affect either one of us? Are we being sidelined from greater things?

Happy New Years dude! May we both hear better this year!
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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And that's a curious question. You and I both serve the same God, the God of Abraham, We both follow Christ, and seek the same Holy Spirit. We both read the same Bible and the same commentaries and resources. Yet we come to such different conclusions. You don't think I hear God right, and I know you don't (just kidding lol!). Who's to decide who's right? Who's to say we're not both wrong?

But here's something to consider ... what gain is there in pursuing 10 pages worth of arguments for, what is it now, 141 pages? Is there anything to be gained by this endless repetition? Especially over a subject that's not going to affect either one of us? Are we being sidelined from greater things?

Happy New Years dude! May we both hear better this year!
Same to you. My wife needs that I hear her better also . prayer is needed..

It's one of those things. We all have a private interpretations as a personal commentary on what we believe the Holy Spirit is teaching called "heresy" The same word for sect or denomination. I would say like fingerprints differing for one another . Some a little other more..

Scripture informs us the must be heresies amongst us in that way. This is with the exception of heresies that clearly do despite to the grace of Christ. Those kind of opinions as heresy are subject to damnation. They bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This for one it is the foundation of Catholicism as well as Pharisees with Sadducees in respect to a law of the fathers, a false zeal for knowing our God. .Teaching Christ has given a unknown remnant of the grace needed with the exception to a queen of heaven that some call Mary and the rest of the suffering must be made up in a place called purgatory for an unknow amount of time.

We there seek His approval and not that of each other. We cal learn from each other but are not have a faith in respect to what the eyes see.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
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In these discussions let us ask ... is this really going to be an issue with the vast majority of us?

The doctrine that one’s salvation is conditional upon one’s continued faith in Christ and one’s continued obedience to Him is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Moreover, the danger of a believer fatally falling away from “the living God” (Hebrews 3:12) is found throughout the Bible. Indeed, the doctrine of conditional security is so clearly and forcefully taught in the Bible that it is one of the very few doctrines that were not challenged by anyone for the first 1,500 years of the Church! Since then, the doctrine of conditional security has continued to be held as true by the very large majority of the Church. Nonetheless, it has been, for the past 500 years, the subject of unrelenting, vicious, and groundless attacks by naysayers who have very little knowledge of verbal aspect in Koine Greek, and how greatly it differs from verbal aspect in English. Unlike in English where verb tenses primarily express the time of the action, verb tenses in Greek primarily express the continuity of the action. Therefore “believing” in Jesus for salvation meant something very different to the writers of the New Testament than it does to English readers.

Apostasy

Described

Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12

Caused by persecution

Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13

Caused by worldliness

2Ti_4:10

Guilt and punishment of

Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22

Cautions against

Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17

Shall abound in the latter days

Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

See Antichrist

Unclassified scriptures relating to

General references

Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

See Backsliders; Reprobacy

Instances of:

Israelites

Ex 32; Num 14

Saul

1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18

Amaziah

2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27

Disciples

Joh_6:66

Judas

Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18

Hymenaeus and Alexander

1Ti_1:19-20

Phygellus and Hermogenes

2Ti_1:15

See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel



(From Nave’s Topical Bible)
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
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How about this scripture. Explain how they will be snatched from the hand of God!!



John 10 NIV. No one can snatch them out of My hand

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
John 10:22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.”

Please notice especially vv. 26-28,

26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

These verses are a translation of the following:

26. ἀλλ’ ὑμεῖς οὐ πιστεύετε, ὅτι οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐκ τῶν προβάτων τῶν ἐμῶν.
27. τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ τῆς φωνῆς μου ἀκούουσιν, κἀγὼ γινώσκω αὐτὰ καὶ ἀκολουθοῦσίν μοι,
28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου.

Anyone with a basic knowledge of Greek can see that all of the Greek verbs translated here as “believe,” “ hear,” “know,” “follow,” and” give” are in the present tense—and that unlike in English where verb tenses primarily express the time of the action, verb tenses in Greek primarily express the continuity of the action. Jesus is knowing those sheep who are hearing His voice and who are following Him—and to those sheep Jesus is giving eternal life. Please note that the Bible does NOT say that Jesus gave them eternal life; the Bible says that Jesus is giving eternal life to them. If they should quit hearing and following Jesus, the giving to them of eternal life will cease and they shall perish.

Compare:

Isa. 43:10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”

Notice especially v. 13, “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”

But continue reading the rest of the chapter and what do you find,

22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.”

And finally,

28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.”

The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

And, so it is with all of the “proof texts” for the doctrine of eternal security. Should Baptists believe in a doctrine that was first conceived in the 16th century; or should they believe in the doctrine taught by Christ and His apostles, and the Early Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon?


(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
John 10:22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.”

Please notice especially vv. 26-28,

26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

These verses are a translation of the following:

26. ἀλλ’ ὑμεῖς οὐ πιστεύετε, ὅτι οὐκ ἐστὲ ἐκ τῶν προβάτων τῶν ἐμῶν.
27. τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ τῆς φωνῆς μου ἀκούουσιν, κἀγὼ γινώσκω αὐτὰ καὶ ἀκολουθοῦσίν μοι,
28. κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου.

Anyone with a basic knowledge of Greek can see that all of the Greek verbs translated here as “believe,” “ hear,” “know,” “follow,” and” give” are in the present tense—and that unlike in English where verb tenses primarily express the time of the action, verb tenses in Greek primarily express the continuity of the action. Jesus is knowing those sheep who are hearing His voice and who are following Him—and to those sheep Jesus is giving eternal life. Please note that the Bible does NOT say that Jesus gave them eternal life; the Bible says that Jesus is giving eternal life to them. If they should quit hearing and following Jesus, the giving to them of eternal life will cease and they shall perish.

Compare:

Isa. 43:10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”

Notice especially v. 13, “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”

But continue reading the rest of the chapter and what do you find,

22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.”

And finally,

28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.”

The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,

28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

And, so it is with all of the “proof texts” for the doctrine of eternal security. Should Baptists believe in a doctrine that was first conceived in the 16th century; or should they believe in the doctrine taught by Christ and His apostles, and the Early Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon?


(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
You make assumptions about what the verses state. There is a problem the authors faced in writing in Greek. It is not koine Greek but koine Judeo Greek. When the Jews use a language they modify it. In modern times they created Yiddish. It is Judeo German. Because of the convoluted way English was developed. Celtic was the earliest language in Britain. Then in came the Romans bringing Latin. Later the Saxons brought German and last the Angles brought French. From this mixture we have the most confusing language with rules from each causing the exceptions, exceptions to the exceptions, etc. As part of this our singular and plural nouns are sometimes confusing. I took Latin in HS and remember some of it. First person singular masculine is "us" and plural is "ae' pronounced long i. Just recently because of this the plural of cactus has been changed from cactae to cacti. Too many people didn't know how to properly say cactae. All because of the Latin ending in the English word.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
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5 minute rule
One of the problems the authors of New Testament had was trying to put Hebrew concepts into Greek. It didn't fit well. Here is a text about this problem.

There is a problem with the Greek language expressing Hebrew concepts. Paul and James struggled to do this. The Greek of the New Testament is really koine Judeo Greek not koine Greek.

https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/do-paul-and-james-disagree-about-faith/

Do Paul and James Disagree About “Faith”?
By Dr. Yeshaya Gruber
October 22, 2018

The question of “faith vs. works” has often baffled—and even enraged—biblical interpreters. Different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) proclaim different views, sometimes fighting with each other over the correct interpretation. All of them contrast their own position with the “old” Jewish way of thinking. So where does all this conflict and confusion come from?

An apparent contradiction lies at the root of the controversy. Saul/Paul of Tarsus writes, “For we hold that one is justified by faith (πίστις; pistis) apart from works of the Law” (Romans 3:28, ESV; cf. Rom 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11, 3:24). But then Jacob/James of Jerusalem says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith (πίστις; pistis) alone” (2:24, ESV). Some Christian theologians take one side or the other in this “debate,” while others try to show that the apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction.

Yet for all the argument and discussion, one of the most important factors is often neglected completely. Both Jacob/James and Saul/Paul were actually first-century Jews who lived in a hybrid Hebrew-Greek environment. Like others in this situation, they struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language. Just before Jacob/James states that becoming “just” involves “works” rather than merely “faith alone,” he exclaims, “You foolish fellow, can’t you see that ‘faith’ apart from works is useless?!” (2:20). This outburst reflects the fact – difficult to convey in Greek – that the Hebrew word for “faith” (אמונה; emunah) means a lifestyle of steadfast reliability.

Saul/Paul was no less frustrated with his audience when it came to understanding the Jewish idea of “faith” – he even calls the Galatians “mindless” (Gal 3:1) with regard to this topic. In context, he was arguing that the way to be considered “just” is to live a lifestyle of steadfast reliability in the way of truth, and that this doesn’t depend on whether one is Jewish and follows the Torah of Moses, or is a Gentile and therefore not obliged to keep all the same commandments.

Both authors found themselves limited by the language they had to use. Each chose a different angle or tack in employing Greek words to express Hebrew/Jewish ideas. This created the impression of a major contradiction, one that would even cause religious schisms! Thankfully, today we have many tools for understanding the original Jewish-Greek context and decoding the deep meanings of such ancient letters.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
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28
You make assumptions about what the verses state.
This allegation is false! I quoted the New Testament verses verbatim as found in the NA28 (The 28th and current edition of the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece) and stated incontrovertible facts about the verbs used in the text. I also quoted verbatim a standard translation (The 1995 updated edition of the NASB) of the parallel passage found in the 43rd chapter of Isaiah.

There is a problem the authors faced in writing in Greek. It is not koine Greek but koine Judeo Greek.
This allegation is also false! The fourth gospel (“The Gospel According to John”) was written in Koine Greek—the common, everyday Greek dialect that first-century Jewish fishermen used in their daily lives. For unequivocal support for this assertion, please the commentaries on the Greek text of the fourth gospel by:

Beasley-Murray, George R.
Bernard, J. H. (two volumes)
Brown, Raymond E. (two volumes)
Bruce, F. F.
Dods, Marcus
Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm
Schnackenburg, Rudolf (three volumes)
Westcott, B. F.

When the Jews use a language they modify it. In modern times they created Yiddish. It is Judeo German. Because of the convoluted way English was developed. Celtic was the earliest language in Britain. Then in came the Romans bringing Latin. Later the Saxons brought German and last the Angles brought French. From this mixture we have the most confusing language with rules from each causing the exceptions, exceptions to the exceptions, etc. As part of this our singular and plural nouns are sometimes confusing. I took Latin in HS and remember some of it. First person singular masculine is "us" and plural is "ae' pronounced long i. Just recently because of this the plural of cactus has been changed from cactae to cacti. Too many people didn't know how to properly say cactae. All because of the Latin ending in the English word.
All spoken and written languages are fluid and are constantly being modified by those who use them. This is why an extensive knowledge of the grammar and lexical choices used in the individual books of the New Testament is critical to an accurate understanding of them. However, my post is firmly based upon basic principles of Greek grammar that can be found in any intermediate grammar of Koine Greek being published today.

Furthermore, there are three plural forms of “cactus”—“cacti,” “cactuses,” and “cactus.” The English word “cactus” comes to us through the Latin from the very early Greek “kaktos.” Moreover, in Latin, most second declension masculine nouns ending in -us form their plural in –i, NOT in –ae!

I find it to be appalling when Christians make false statements—either on purpose or because of gross negligence.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
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How do you know it is when a person gets Saved that their name is written in the Book of Life?

Is there scripture that states this?

How do you know that it is not ALL that are born that are written in the Book of Life and the ones who are blotted out are the ones who do not come to Christ??????????

How is it you don't see that by your philosophical conclusions you come against scripture?
First...use common sense...G-d says in 14 places...dont forget common sense, use common sense, apply common sense, etc....do scripture search.

When we are born our name goes into the..... Book of Life. When we reach the age of accountability and sin our name is removed from The Book of life. When we repent and are baptized our name is entered into the ......Lamb's Book of Life. These are the books opened at the time of judgement. Our name must be in one of them to receive eternal salvation.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
timed out....

This is why we cannot say we are ....saved..... while in this life on earth.
While here we can say we are..... born again....not saved. That word is reserved for G-d.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
The doctrine that one’s salvation is conditional upon one’s continued faith in Christ and one’s continued obedience to Him is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Moreover, the danger of a believer fatally falling away from “the living God” (Hebrews 3:12) is found throughout the Bible. Indeed, the doctrine of conditional security is so clearly and forcefully taught in the Bible that it is one of the very few doctrines that were not challenged by anyone for the first 1,500 years of the Church! Since then, the doctrine of conditional security has continued to be held as true by the very large majority of the Church. Nonetheless, it has been, for the past 500 years, the subject of unrelenting, vicious, and groundless attacks by naysayers who have very little knowledge of verbal aspect in Koine Greek, and how greatly it differs from verbal aspect in English. Unlike in English where verb tenses primarily express the time of the action, verb tenses in Greek primarily express the continuity of the action. Therefore “believing” in Jesus for salvation meant something very different to the writers of the New Testament than it does to English readers.

Apostasy

Described

Deu_13:13; Heb_3:12

Caused by persecution

Mat_24:9-10; Luk_8:13

Caused by worldliness

2Ti_4:10

Guilt and punishment of

Zep_1:4-6; Heb_10:25-31; Heb_10:39; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22

Cautions against

Heb_3:12; 2Pe_3:17

Shall abound in the latter days

Mat_24:12; 2Th_2:3; 1Ti_4:1-3

See Antichrist

Unclassified scriptures relating to

General references

Deu_32:15; 1Ch_28:9; Isa_1:28; Isa_65:11-16; Jer_17:5-6; Eze_3:20; Eze_18:24; Eze_18:26; Eze_33:12-13; Eze_33:18; Mat_13:20-21; Mar_4:5-17; Luk_8:13; Mat_24:10; Mat_24:12; Luk_11:24-26; Joh_15:6; Act_7:39-43; 1Co_9:27; 2Th_2:3; 2Th_2:11-12; 1Ti_4:1-2; 2Ti_3:1-9; 2Ti_4:3-4; Heb_6:4-8; Heb_10:26-29; 2Pe_2:1; 2Pe_2:15; 2Pe_2:17; 2Pe_2:20-22; 2Pe_3:17; Jud_1:4-6

See Backsliders; Reprobacy

Instances of:

Israelites

Ex 32; Num 14

Saul

1Sa_15:26-29; 1Sa_18:12; 1Sa_28:15; 1Sa_28:18

Amaziah

2Ch_25:14; 2Ch_25:27

Disciples

Joh_6:66

Judas

Mat_26:14-16; Mat_27:3-5; Mar_14:10-11; Luk_22:3-6; Luk_22:47-48; Act_1:16-18

Hymenaeus and Alexander

1Ti_1:19-20

Phygellus and Hermogenes

2Ti_1:15

See Backsliders, Backsliding of Israel



(From Nave’s Topical Bible)
My question wasn't to continue the argument, it was whether the amount of time and energy spent on this argument is worth the infinitesimally small chance that any of us are really in danger from the issue.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,658
2,622
113
timed out....

This is why we cannot say we are ....saved..... while in this life on earth.
While here we can say we are..... born again....not saved. That word is reserved for G-d.
I guess you didn't apply "common sense".

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
29
28
My question wasn't to continue the argument, it was whether the amount of time and energy spent on this argument is worth the infinitesimally small chance that any of us are really in danger from the issue.
That is the question that I answered. Indeed, I answered the question in my first two sentences!

“The doctrine that one’s salvation is conditional upon one’s continued faith in Christ and one’s continued obedience to Him is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Moreover, the danger of a believer fatally falling away from “the living God” (Hebrews 3:12) is found throughout the Bible.”

I suppose, however, that it could be argued that the Biblical writers were wasting their time. :eek:
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
That is the question that I answered. Indeed, I answered the question in my first two sentences!

“The doctrine that one’s salvation is conditional upon one’s continued faith in Christ and one’s continued obedience to Him is one of the most frequently taught doctrines in the Bible. Moreover, the danger of a believer fatally falling away from “the living God” (Hebrews 3:12) is found throughout the Bible.”

I suppose, however, that it could be argued that the Biblical writers were wasting their time. :eek:
Sorry, I don't see the connection. I asked is it reasonable to continue the argument, all you did was continue the argument.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
29
28
I guess you didn't apply "common sense".

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
“Common sense” without factual support—indeed, there is an abundance of factual support to the contrary—has caused many people to mistakenly believe that this passage supports the doctrine of eternal security even though the parallel passage in Isaiah 43 expressly teaches the opposite!

Isaiah 43: 1. But now thus says the Lord,
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
2. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you.
3. For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I give Egypt as your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in exchange for you.
4. Because you are precious in my sight,
and honored, and I love you,
I give people in return for you,
nations in exchange for your life.
5. Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you;
6. I will say to the north, "Give them up,"
and to the south, "Do not withhold;
bring my sons from far away
and my daughters from the end of the earth--
7. everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
8. Bring forth the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!
9. Let all the nations gather together,
and let the peoples assemble.
Who among them declared this,
and foretold to us the former things?
Let them bring their witnesses to justify them,
and let them hear and say, "It is true."
10. You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
11. I, I am the Lord,
and besides me there is no savior.
12. I declared and saved and proclaimed,
when there was no strange god among you;
and you are my witnesses, says the Lord.
13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

14. Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
For your sake I will send to Babylon
and break down all the bars,
and the shouting of the Chaldeans will be turned to lamentation.
15. I am the Lord, your Holy One,
the Creator of Israel, your King.
16. Thus says the Lord,
who makes a way in the sea,
a path in the mighty waters,
17. who brings out chariot and horse,
army and warrior;
they lie down, they cannot rise,
they are extinguished, quenched like a wick:
18. Do not remember the former things,
or consider the things of old.
19. I am about to do a new thing;
now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
I will make a way in the wilderness
and rivers in the desert.
20. The wild animals will honor me,
the jackals and the ostriches;
for I give water in the wilderness,
rivers in the desert,
to give drink to my chosen people,
21. the people whom I formed for myself
so that they might declare my praise.
22. Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob;
but you have been weary of me, O Israel!
23. You have not brought me your sheep for burnt offerings,
or honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with offerings,
or wearied you with frankincense.
24. You have not bought me sweet cane with money,
or satisfied me with the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins;
you have wearied me with your iniquities.
25. I, I am He
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
26. Accuse me, let us go to trial;
set forth your case, so that you may be proved right.
27. Your first ancestor sinned,
and your interpreters transgressed against me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
(NRSV)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,658
2,622
113
“Common sense” without factual support—indeed, there is an abundance of factual support to the contrary—has caused many people to mistakenly believe that this passage supports the doctrine of eternal security even though the parallel passage in Isaiah 43 expressly teaches the opposite!

Isaiah 43: 1. But now thus says the Lord,
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
2. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you;
when you walk through fire you shall not be burned,
and the flame shall not consume you.
3. For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior.
I give Egypt as your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in exchange for you.
4. Because you are precious in my sight,
and honored, and I love you,
I give people in return for you,
nations in exchange for your life.
5. Do not fear, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you;
6. I will say to the north, "Give them up,"
and to the south, "Do not withhold;
bring my sons from far away
and my daughters from the end of the earth--
7. everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
8. Bring forth the people who are blind, yet have eyes,
who are deaf, yet have ears!

9. Let all the nations gather together,
and let the peoples assemble.
Who among them declared this,
and foretold to us the former things?
Let them bring their witnesses to justify them,
and let them hear and say, "It is true."
10. You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.
11. I, I am the Lord,
and besides me there is no savior.
12. I declared and saved and proclaimed,
when there was no strange god among you;
and you are my witnesses, says the Lord.
13. I am God, and also henceforth I am He;
there is no one who can deliver from my hand;
I work and who can hinder it?

14. Thus says the Lord,
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
For your sake I will send to Babylon
and break down all the bars,
and the shouting of the Chaldeans will be turned to lamentation.
15. I am the Lord, your Holy One,
the Creator of Israel, your King.
16. Thus says the Lord,
who makes a way in the sea,
a path in the mighty waters,
17. who brings out chariot and horse,
army and warrior;
they lie down, they cannot rise,
they are extinguished, quenched like a wick:
18. Do not remember the former things,
or consider the things of old.
19. I am about to do a new thing;
now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
I will make a way in the wilderness
and rivers in the desert.
20. The wild animals will honor me,
the jackals and the ostriches;
for I give water in the wilderness,
rivers in the desert,
to give drink to my chosen people,
21. the people whom I formed for myself
so that they might declare my praise.
22. Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob;
but you have been weary of me, O Israel!
23. You have not brought me your sheep for burnt offerings,
or honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with offerings,
or wearied you with frankincense.
24. You have not bought me sweet cane with money,
or satisfied me with the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins;
you have wearied me with your iniquities.
25. I, I am He
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
26. Accuse me, let us go to trial;
set forth your case, so that you may be proved right.
27. Your first ancestor sinned,
and your interpreters transgressed against me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
(NRSV)
It looks like common sense skipped over you as well.

How can it be a parallel passage when it is talking of something entirely different??? Because you want to try and make eternal life mean temporary or even no life?

They have ears, but do not hear, and eyes but do not see....