OSAS= House Built on Sand

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,520
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If the 1 who belongs to the shepherd is lost, then why does Jesus say the 99 are just, and not 100 are just?


Why does Jesus say the 1 who is lost, is a sinner in need of repentance while the 99 are just and need no repentance?



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


Please be honest.




JPT
are we saved by belief and trust in Christ or command keeping?? please be honest.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
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Let's all read and believe the truth!


The shepherd has 100 sheep that belong to him.


One goes astray and is lost.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20


  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
  • and someone turns him back
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
  • will save a soul from death


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Separated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.


For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.



JPT
Is YOUR parable the one in the Bible thats found in MATTHEW that i posted?? Cause you didnt seem to acknowlege that post at all..what book chapter and verses are you using?
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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Not one single person among the OSAS group can honestly define what lost and what found mean from the scriptures that Jesus taught about this simple subject.



What does that say about the rest of your theology.


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Separated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.



Sheep who become lost must repent in order to be reconciled back to Christ and be justified again.




JPT
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
Not one single person among the OSAS group can honestly define what lost and what found mean from the scriptures that Jesus taught about this simple subject.



What does that say about the rest of your theology.


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Separated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.



Sheep who become lost must repent in order to be reconciled back to Christ and be justified again.




JPT
Repent=salvation=found/fold

THAT IS THE WHOLE PLAN OF SALVATION..we are "lost" in a sinful nature..sin seperates us from God..Jesus/shephard DIED ON THE CROSS so that we had a way (as lost sheep) to be RECONCILED(found) back to God (the fold of believers)
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
are we saved by belief and trust in Christ or command keeping?? please be honest.

We are saved by obeying the Gospel command.

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8



We remain in Him by obeying His commandments -​

  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


again


  • and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Repent=salvation=found/fold

THAT IS THE WHOLE PLAN OF SALVATION..we are "lost" in a sinful nature..sin seperates us from God..Jesus/shephard DIED ON THE CROSS so that we had a way (as lost sheep) to be RECONCILED(found) back to God (the fold of believers)


A sheep who is lost is a sinner in need of repentance, unjust, separated from Christ the Shepherd.


That's the point.




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Is YOUR parable the one in the Bible thats found in MATTHEW that i posted?? Cause you didnt seem to acknowlege that post at all..what book chapter and verses are you using?

Here is the parable of the sheep in Luke and Matthew -


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.




JPT
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,687
8,478
113
P...,

It sounds as though you conclude that G-d is compelling the lost to be corralled.
While it is G-d's desire that no one be lost........ I fail to find scriptures that says....G-d is out looking in caves, under rocks, behind trees, etc,...for the lost. Believe scriptures...He knows where each one is located.

Perhaps you can give me a specific reference that your conclusion is based on...ok?
Sure thing. Here's a good start for ya:

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.

Ezekiel 34:16 "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy I will feed them with judgment.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Matthew 18:12"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?

Isaiah 62:12 And they will call them, "The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD"; And you will be called, "Sought out, a city not forsaken."

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

OooH!! Here's one of my faves!

Romans 8:38-39 King James Version (KJV)
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Um... I don't see in that verse where Paul says " ONLY GETTING LOST WILL SEPARATE US" hmm . Go Fig.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Not one single person among the OSAS group can honestly define what lost and what found mean from the scriptures that Jesus taught about this simple subject.
Luke 15:

Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were drawing near to Him to hear Him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
And He spoke to them this parable, saying, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep...I say to you that in the same way there will be joy in heaven over one sinner repenting, rather than over ninety nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.


The context is about lost sheep of Israel - sinners, tax collectors.
Righteous ones (not lost sheep) who need no repentance were Pharisees and scribes.

Please, realize this is not about church, believers in Christ or even to be taken technically (pharisees were not righteous). Its a style used in those days to teach. Not understanding the principle of how Jesus taught will get you into many errors.

It has nothing to do with OSAS.
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Luke 15:

Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were drawing near to Him to hear Him. And both the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
And He spoke to them this parable, saying, “What man of you, having a hundred sheep...I say to you that in the same way there will be joy in heaven over one sinner repenting, rather than over ninety nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance.


The context is about lost sheep of Israel - sinners, tax collectors.
Righteous ones (not lost sheep) who need no repentance were Pharisees and scribes.

Please, realize this is not about church, believers in Christ or even to be taken technically (pharisees were not righteous). Its a style used in those days to teach. Not understanding the principle of how Jesus taught will get you into many errors.

It has nothing to do with OSAS.

I guess the prodigal son is also about Israel as well?


Brother, Jesus is teaching about the Church, you and I.


The shepherd has 100 sheep.

The sheep belong to the shepherd.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20


  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
  • and someone turns him back
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
  • will save a soul from death


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.


For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.



JPT
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
I guess the prodigal son is also about Israel as well?

Brother, Jesus is teaching about the Church, you and I.

The shepherd has 100 sheep.

The sheep belong to the shepherd.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.



James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20


  • Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
  • and someone turns him back
  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
  • will save a soul from death


Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.


For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.



JPT
Everything in the Bible has:

a) its context
b) some goal
c) some style

We cannot just put various occurences of similar or same words together and create a theology from it. Which is, i am afraid, what you are doing here.

Jesus's reactions to Pharisees' complaints are quite a different situation than for example teachings of Paul to some church. We must realize that and be careful.
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Everything in the Bible has:

a) its context
b) some goal
c) some style

We cannot just put various occurences of similar or same words together and create a theology from it. Which is, i am afraid, what you are doing here.

Let's examine your assumption, line upon line.


The shepherd has 100 sheep.

The sheep belong to the shepherd.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7



Do the 100 sheep belong to the shepherd?





JPT
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
We are saved by obeying the Gospel command.

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8



We remain in Him by obeying His commandments -​

  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


again


  • and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT

Nope nope nope..BELIEVE on the LORD Jesus Christ and THOUGH shalt be saved...amen! THEN because we LOVE Jesus we WANT to try and keep is COMMANDS..not because God NEEDS us to do it or its an OBLIGATION to get brownie points in heaven..its because we LOVE HIM.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
A sheep who is lost is a sinner in need of repentance, unjust, separated from Christ the Shepherd.


That's the point.




JPT
THAT is true. I agree with but YOUR connection with OSAS i DONT agree with.but so close..lol
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,687
8,478
113
An animal who consumes everything in sight.



No goat is mentioned in the parable of the sheep.


That's why it's called the parable of the sheep.




JPT
So when Jesus separates the Sheep from the goats at the judgement some of the Sheep morph into a goats?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,520
6,216
113
We are saved by obeying the Gospel command.

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


again



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8



We remain in Him by obeying His commandments -​

  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


again


  • and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT
so, yes, you do not believe in salvation by faith in Christ, and say " command keeping."

just so you know, as you continue to bare false witness, citing 1st John for command keeping, while ignoring that John said the commands were to believe in the name of the Son, and love one another, I will continue to point this out.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
Here is the parable of the sheep in Luke and Matthew -


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.



  • What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
  • Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.


  • I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


  • If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
  • And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.



Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:


  1. Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
  2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
  3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
  4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.




JPT
Its IMPORTANT that you dont specifically use just THOSE verses to make your point but use ALL of them like i posted..to get the WHOLE CONCEPT as Jesus was getting across..otherwise you are SUBTRACTING from the scripture to accomodate YOUR beliefs and not what tge BIBLE is saying...