OSAS= House Built on Sand

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R

Ralph-

Guest
Why so defensive? Who said that I was talking about you?
I know you weren't talking about me. I don't push a 'works justify' doctrine. And I make that very clear. So I always dismiss posts addressed to those who push works salvation because I don't push that. What disturbed me was you making all of us who don't buy into the cult of 'once saved always saved' guilty by association.


Which false religions and cults teach that grace is a license to sin? All the false religions and cults that I'm familiar with, including (Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism, SDA's, JW's etc..) teach salvation by works and strongly oppose OSAS. I don't think that I'm being unfair. It's an honest observation.
You tried to make all non-once saved always saved believers guilty of teaching works salvation by association with the non-Protestant and fringe churches who also don't believe in OSAS that you name above.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
relieved of any and all responsibility for actually living for Christ.

How do you accomplish this task Ralph?
Walk by the Spirit. That's how you take the responsibility to live for Christ. YOU do that. YOU make the decision if you're going to pick up the power of the Holy Spirit and do right, or if you're not going to do that.

This 'automatic' Christianity has to be exposed for what it is. All it's done is salve Christians consciences and deceitfully relieve their guilty consciences about not living for Christ.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
This is not what most Christians believe. Hyper Grace is false doctrine, but you will not find anyone who is serious about these things promoting the idea that grace is a a license to sin.
You will see in time that Calvinistic 'once saved always saved' is on it's way out and being replaced by Hyper/Free-grace 'once saved always saved'. You'll see.

When someone says grace makes it so they can go back to unbelief and they are still saved, that's making grace a license to sin. If it's not, what is?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Walk by the Spirit. That's how you take the responsibility to live for Christ. YOU do that. YOU make the decision if you're going to pick up the power of the Holy Spirit and do right, or if you're not going to do that.

This 'automatic' Christianity has to be exposed for what it is. All it's done is salve Christians consciences and deceitfully relieve their guilty consciences about not living for Christ.
Guilt and condemnation do not belong to the children of God.

Is living for Christ and living in Christ the same thing?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
You KNOW mailmans and my views..
I don't think you even realize that mailmandan is not even in the same book as you are in regard to 'once saved always saved' doctrine. But as long as what he says includes 'once saved always saved' it won't make any difference to you. I see this all the time among OSAS believers.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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As Leibniz said, many conflicts between predestination and free will proponents can be solved by proper terms and context definitions.

Most of conflicts are just misunderstandings of the opposite side and unnecessary.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Please read these words: Do you believe Paul was trying to "spin" and deceive people?
  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:6-8

JLB
Paul was not trying to "spin" and deceive people in Romans 2:6-8, but you are, as you continue to read these verses "through the lens of salvation by works." *As I already explained to you numerous times: If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. *These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

"Perseverance in doing good" -- descriptive of believers; "but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness" -- descriptive of unbelievers.

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. *If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Can you understand what post the scripture that you want to discuss, means?


If you have a scripture that pertains to goats, then post it for discussion.



Meanwhile, the scripture we are discussing does not contain the word goats.


You still have an unanswered question.



Is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved, just or unjust, saint or sinner?



JPT
I did answer your question in post 1069. Here it is again.

The Shepherd is the Lord.

The Shepherd says it's one of HIS sheep that are lost.
The Shepherd says He is going to look for the lost sheep UNTIL He finds him.

The Lord is not impotent. He is eminently competent. He WILL find HIS lost sheep.

The lost sheep IS saved!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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We are saved by obeying the Gospel command.
We obey the gospel command by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" So we can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To believe the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (Christ's finished work of redemption) as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

*Romans 3:24 - being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. (y)

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23
Your problem is that you take the word "obey" and write a blank check with it, then fill in whatever amount of "works" that you feel are necessary to accomplish in order to be saved and you call that obeying the gospel/obeying the truth, but you are obeying a "different" gospel. :(

COMPARE:

1 Peter 1:22 - Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth..

WITH

Acts 15:9 - purifying their hearts by faith.

Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves and results in purified souls/hearts.

again

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
Again, those who do not obey the gospel are those who do not choose to believe the gospel and fail to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, but instead, trust in works salvation.

We remain in Him by obeying His commandments -
  • Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
You continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture and the end result every time is salvation by works. :cautious:

1 John 3:24 - Now he who keeps (guards, watches over, keeps intact) His commandments (descriptive of believers) abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

*More demonstrative evidence of believers who abide in Christ.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death to life (demonstrative evidence), because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. *This is not merely "lip service" confession, as we see in Matthew 7:21-23.

again
  • and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
Again, "does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God" -- descriptive of unbelievers. "He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son" -- descriptive of believers.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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James says it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death
*Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no second death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Guilt and condemnation do not belong to the children of God.
Legally speaking, that is true.

In practical terms, yes it does belong to the child of God, when they don't walk according to the Spirit. It's just not an eternal guilt and condemnation. You stay legally free of guilt and condemnation despite your failures if you keep believing.



Is living for Christ and living in Christ the same thing?
No.

You can be made alive in Christ but choose to not live for him.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I know you weren't talking about me. I don't push a 'works justify' doctrine. And I make that very clear.
Unfortunately though, false religions and cults DO push 'works justify' doctrine.

So I always dismiss posts addressed to those who push works salvation because I don't push that.
Unlike JPT.

What disturbed me was you making all of us who don't buy into the cult of 'once saved always saved' guilty by association.
I never said that EVERYONE who disagrees with OSAS is guilty by association with works salvationists in cults and false religions. I was simply pointing out that I've noticed those who attack the OSAS doctrine the most are those who teach salvation by works and also that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly disagree with OSAS. *That is my observation and is a red flag for me!

You tried to make all non-once saved always saved believers guilty of teaching works salvation by association with the non-Protestant and fringe churches who also don't believe in OSAS that you name above.
I NEVER said that ALL who disagree with OSAS are guilty of teaching works salvation by association with these non-believers in false religions and cults. There are various views among those in the NOSAS camp (moderate to extreme), just as there are various views among those in the OSAS camp.

There may even be people in the OSAS camp who at one time went forward at church and prayed the sinners prayer (yet there was no repentance/faith) but believe they are saved, simply because they recited that prayer like it's a magical formula that saves if you simply recite those words. Yet you can't say that people who went forward at church during an altar call in all sincerity and came to repentance/faith and were saved are guilty by association with those who went forward, but did not truly believe and were not saved.

My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and he believes that a Christian can lose their salvation, but that person would have to completely turn their back on the Lord and that's the way they would "remain." No accident, no slipping off a tight rope, deliberate continuous rebellion. He believes that only a small % of Christians would actually do that and he likens the believer's security in Christ as someone walking down a road with two high walls on both sides of the road. The person is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side.

Although my brother and I are not in agreement on whether or not a genuine born again Christian can lose their salvation, he still clearly believes that man is saved through faith, not works.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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This is not what most Christians believe. Hyper Grace is false doctrine, but you will not find anyone who is serious about these things promoting the idea that grace is a a license to sin.
Oh, do you want some names from CC who pretty openly teach this . . .? (I won't give them - could get me in trouble!) :p:oops:
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Unfortunately though, false religions and cults DO push 'works justify' doctrine.

Unlike JPT.

I never said that EVERYONE who disagrees with OSAS is guilty by association with works salvationists in cults and false religions. I was simply pointing out that I've noticed those who attack the OSAS doctrine the most are those who teach salvation by works and also that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly disagree with OSAS. *That is my observation and is a red flag for me!

I NEVER said that ALL who disagree with OSAS are guilty of teaching works salvation by association with these non-believers in false religions and cults. There are various views among those in the NOSAS camp (moderate to extreme), just as there are various views among those in the OSAS camp.

There may even be people in the OSAS camp who at one time went forward at church and prayed the sinners prayer (yet there was no repentance/faith) but believe they are saved, simply because they recited that prayer like it's a magical formula that saves if you simply recite those words. Yet you can't say that people who went forward at church during an altar call in all sincerity and came to repentance/faith and were saved are guilty by association with those who went forward, but did not truly believe and were not saved.

My brother attends the Church of the Nazarene and he believes that a Christian can lose their salvation, but that person would have to completely turn their back on the Lord and that's the way they would "remain." No accident, no slipping off a tight rope, deliberate continuous rebellion. He believes that only a small % of Christians would actually do that and he likens the believer's security in Christ as someone walking down a road with two high walls on both sides of the road. The person is secure, but is still free to choose to climb over the wall to the other side.

Although my brother and I are not in agreement on whether or not a genuine born again Christian can lose their salvation, he still clearly believes that man is saved through faith, not works.
Excellent post, Mailmandan!! (y)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Tell us what happens if that lost Sheep, that is FOUND wanders away from the flock again? Does the Father give up on him, or does He go after him again UNTIL he is found?
Good questions - Is there another parable given that answers that question? I don't know of any such parable?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Where does that leave you?

Lost can be used to designate eternally lost.

Lost can be used to designate misplaced.

Lost can be used to designate without hope of restoration.

Sheep is used to designate believers.

Goats is used to designate unsaved people or nations.

Which brings us back to where does it leave you? Sheep hear His voice. Goats do not hear. Sheep respond and goats rebell.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You made some good points Roger. JPT continues to grind on the word "lost" because he is absolutely obsessed with promoting his "NOSAS/conjoined with works salvation" agenda/propaganda :rolleyes: but is missing the big picture here.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a Christian lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So JPT can try all he wants to make this parable teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again, but to no avail. JPT conveniently forgets what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ;)

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
*
Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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You made some good points Roger. JPT continues to grind on the word "lost" because he is absolutely obsessed with promoting his "NOSAS/conjoined with works salvation" agenda/propaganda :rolleyes: but is missing the big picture here.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a Christian lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So JPT can try all he wants to make this parable teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again, but to no avail. JPT conveniently forgets what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ;)

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
*
Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.
So the parable has nothing to do with non-OSAS or OSAS -- it is about God's care and concern for the lost.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ;)

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
*
Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.
Right. (y)

I was going to come back (to whatever thread I'd posted that first verse [and another related one]) and add the Luke 19:10 verse to those. I see you beat me to it! :D


Plus, when I get more time (later, if I can), I'd like to post about how John 6:39 and 6:40 are about DISTINCT subjects, just like the two within 6:37... (the "masculine gender" words are referring to the PERSONS, whereas the "neuter gender" items are not, but refer to things PERTAINING to Him and His possessions [other than persons])
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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The Bible says that we are born again, NOT born again and again and again etc.. ;)
It is actually a continuous act of Gods grace. One time yet continuous into the future without end.

For the cause of Christ
Roger