OSAS= House Built on Sand

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Seohce

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Jul 15, 2016
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  1. Not by works( NOT “VOID OF WORKS”) but by grace thru FAITH.(eph 2:8-9)
  2. Justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(james 2:24)
  3. Faith that Worketh in Love.(gal 5:6)
  4. Faith and Action Working TOGETHER.(james 2:22)

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH and NOT BY WORKS(of ourselves).(#1)


It is NOT BY FAITH ALONE(#2)but it WORKS in LOVE(#3)thus FAITH & LOVE(works of obedience(romans 1:5) manifested in ACTION and in TRUTH)(1john 3:16-18)are working TOGETHER.(#4)


2 John 1:6 AND THIS IS LOVE: THAT WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.




THE FIRST PHASE OF SALVATION IS TO BELIEVE IN THE ONE THAT GOD HAS SENT AND IN HIS WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.

(john 6:28-29, eph 1:13,romans 10:8-17).

THROUGH THIS FAITH WE WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT(the Helper/Counsellor)(gal 3:14, john 14:16-17)


John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS GOD REQUIRES?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”


THE SECOND PHASE IS THE WORKING OUT OF THAT SALVATION AND REMAINING/CONTINUING IN THE FAITH TO THE END THROUGH OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL AND COMMANDMENTS, DOING GOOD WORKS. WALKING AS JESUS DID AND BEING A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST WHO DOES THE WORKS BEING LED BY THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST WHO IS THE HEAD.


Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, HIS BODY OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.


1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has FAITH in me WILL DO WHAT I HAVE BEEN DOING. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father


1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, iF YOU HOLD FIRMLY TO THE WORD I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.


Romans 1:5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the OBEDIENCE that comes from FAITH.


Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always OBEYED—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—CONTINUE TO WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.


Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as servants, you are servants to the one whom you obey—WHETHER YOU ARE SERVANTS TO SIN, WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, OR TO OBEDIENCE, WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS?


2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the OBEDIENCE THAT ACCOMPANIES YOUR CONFESSION OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.


Ephesians 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, TO PREPARE GOD’S PEOPLE FOR WORKS OF SERVICE, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, ATTAINING to the whole measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.


Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in DOING GOOD seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


Galatians 6:9 Let us not become weary in DOING GOOD, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


1 Timothy 6:18-19 Command them TO DO GOOD, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.


Hebrews 5:8-9 Although he was a son, he learned OBEDIENCE from what he suffered and, once made PERFECT, he became the SOURCE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for all who OBEY HIM.


Matthew 19:16-17 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do TO GET ETERNAL LIFE?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”


Matthew 25:21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful SERVANT You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. COME AND SHARE YOUR MASTER’S HAPPINESS!’


WE ARE SANCTIFIED BY THESE TRUTHS AS IT IS WRITTEN:

John 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.


James 1:22 BUT BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT HEARERS ONLY deceiving your own selves.


Romans 2:13 (For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God: that WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not grievous.


1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth.


Ephesians 3:19 and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all THE FULLNESS OF GOD.


THE THIRD PHASE OF SALVATION IS SALVATION FROM GOD’S WRATH. THIS IS DEPENDING ON GOD’S MERCY AND JUDGMENT(JUSTICE).


Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


1 John 4:17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM.


Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father,(ref:john 14:12) where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment,(ref:hebrews 10:26-27) because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


Romans 2:5-10 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.


Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? FOR WE WILL ALL STAND BEFORE GOD’S JUDGMENT SEAT.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, NOT TO BEAR SIN, BUT TO BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for him.


1 Peter 4:17-18 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the SINNERS.


John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who WORKS for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.


John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.


John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You have a problem. You get very opinionated and post things in ignorance. I'm 73 and been elder and deacon in 3 different Reformed theology churches and sat in classes these churches conducted regularly about theological topics. They would discuss not only the Reformed theology but discuss the Arminian and other views as well.
I am Reformed in my beliefs aka Calvinist. One key verse says the carnal mind is enmity against God. That being the case how can anyone have faith in Christ. Arminism teaches free will while Calvinism teaches total depravity (carnal mind enmity against God). Therefore God has to touch the person. That causes them to get grace through faith in Jesus. In dealing with atheists on another board I see this hatred of the concept of God. I provide scientific proof that big bang evolution fails 5 seperate scientific laws and archaeological digs prove the miraculous event of Sodom and Jericho. They ignore and flee or respond with fallacious ad hominem attacks.
You do then believe we are eternally secure in Christ or no?........, because on the Not by Works thread you seem to deny this if I remember correctly?
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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Yet this doctrine is correct in sense that a true Christian will never turn back to his old life
If that's true, then a "true Christian" has no need to persevere. No need to run the race if he already has the prize before the race is finished.
We have instant potatoes, instant coffee, instant soup but we don't have "instant justification". Perseverance and justification is a life long process. We can have a moral assurance of our salvation, but we don't have infallible assurance. We are guaranteed 100% infallible assurance after we are dead and with God, not before.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
If that's true, then a "true Christian" has no need to persevere. No need to run the race if he already has the prize before the race is finished.
We have instant potatoes, instant coffee, instant soup but we don't have "instant justification". Perseverance and justification is a life long process. We can have a moral assurance of our salvation, but we don't have infallible assurance. We are guaranteed 100% infallible assurance after we are dead and with God, not before.
We do have instant justification here and in this life. One can't even start the race without it.

Glorification will occur when we die.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
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James "good works" and Paul's "works of the law" are different words with different meanings.
"Good works" is under a system of grace.
"Works of the law" is under a system of debt.
Treating "works"" interchangeably with no qualifier is a common error.
Authentic good works done in response to the grace of Christ is a good work. Faith and good works is like 2 wings of a bird.

7 acts.jpg

Soup Kitchen.jpg
Protestants doing a good work of feeding the hungry​
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
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The above post should explain why the charge of "works salvation" is so stupid.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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The above post should explain why the charge of "works salvation" is so stupid.


Protestants doing a good work of feeding the hungry​

That is a wonderful picture. Thanks for sharing it with us :)

That said, "good works" are just one of God's purposes in making us, "His workmanship/masterpiece", and wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17. Good works "accompany" our salvation and are therefore part of the evidence that justifies our "claim" (to ourselves and others) that we are who we say we are (that we are the "Christians" that we claim to be).

So, "good works" are the "result", NOT the "cause" of our salvation, nor of its life-long maintenance. Rather, we are both saved and preserved ~from first to last/through this life from justification to Glory~ by God's grace through faith .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25. We are called to "work OUT" a salvation that we already possess (not work at, work up, or work for our salvation). And we are called to work with/alongside of* God as He graciously continues the mighty work He began and promised to finish in us (by seeing to it that we continually grow up, more and more, into the likeness of His Son).

*(we are not called to simply "cooperate" with His dictates to us as if we, apart from Him and His preserving/sanctifying grace, could do any of this on our own).

Finally, if we do not persevere in the faith to Glory, we were never saved from the get-go .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 10:26-28; 1 John 2:19 cf Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43.

~Deut

.........Romans 4
.........5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


.........Romans 11
.........6 If it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

.........
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Yes. How could it be otherwise?

Acts 13:48 New King James Version (NKJV)
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed.

We all agree I think that God knows the end from the beginning. He knows all the decisions we will make before we make them. We cannot surprise God.

I think we all also agree that God knit us in our mother's womb.

So God is knitting the person He KNOWS is going to reject Him. Does He continue knitting that person? If He does, and knows that person is going to reject Him, is He not knitting someone PREDESTINED to be lost? And isn't the reverse also true?
Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand

We HATE that idea. I get that. That is our HUMAN logic and intellect and reasoning trying to fully understand the Creator of everything. How could God create a person He KNOWS is going to reject him!? I can get upset with that thought and those that think that, or I can go out and love everyone, preach His Gospel, and KNOW that HE is in control even when I can't or don't fully understand His Ways and Purposes.
Acts 13:48 is not teaching that God ordered those He chose to believe. God ordered that those who believed received eternal life. The appointing to eternal life was a result of believing not the cause of believing.


Gods foreknowledge is not the cause of belief or unbelief. God does in fact know but God does not cause one to believe and another to reject.

Neither of the twins in Rom 9 were exactly of great personal character. Jacob was a deceiver and tricked his father to bless him ahead of Esau. Esau only wanted the blessing for the wealth and not to serve God. My point would be that even though God knew what each would do God did not order them to do what they did.

Man has a hard time with God hating sin while having unwaivering love for the sinner. Even we who receive Christ and are saved hated God before we saw that our sin would condemn us to eternity in the lake of fire.

Nobody get saved until they get good and lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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If that's true, then a "true Christian" has no need to persevere. No need to run the race if he already has the prize before the race is finished.
We have instant potatoes, instant coffee, instant soup but we don't have "instant justification". Perseverance and justification is a life long process. We can have a moral assurance of our salvation, but we don't have infallible assurance. We are guaranteed 100% infallible assurance after we are dead and with God, not before.
Some good thoughts, epostle -- not quite sure what you are trying to say, though. I believe we can have 100% assurance of salvation right now (that is, if we die we know we are saved and will go to heaven). I think you mean by that we do not have "infallible assurance" that our race is not over till death - that is - it is when we die that our destiny is determined based upon our faith in God. I am believing in Jesus Christ today, but I also am very fully aware that in me is the moral capability to choose my own way and reject Christ. I have absolutely no plans or desire to do that, but that does not take away the moral capability that God created me with.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Protestants doing a good work of feeding the hungry​

That is a wonderful picture. Thanks for sharing it with us :)

That said, "good works" are just one of God's purposes in making us, "His workmanship/masterpiece", and wholly new creatures in Christ .. Ephesians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17. Good works "accompany" our salvation and are therefore part of the evidence that justifies our "claim" (to ourselves and others) that we are who we say we are (that we are the "Christians" that we claim to be).

So, "good works" are the "result", NOT the "cause" of our salvation, nor of its life-long maintenance.
.........
Great picture! Doing good works are one of the riches blessings of the Christian life. We were "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph. 2:10). Sadly, on this site I have sometimes seen those in the quest to separate works from salvation lose the blessing and joy of service for the King!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Yet this doctrine is correct in sense that a true Christian will never turn back to his old life
LW97, do you have the moral capability within yourself to turn away from God and go your own way?
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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Limited atonement is the weakest doctrine ever formulated by a man.

Albeit necessary within the God of "five step program" of Calvin's, where generations of people are given a short time on this planet and then consigned to hell because God did not select them.

God could have easy had His selection within the first few centuries after Christ, but no it takes millennia to have His select group so

then the others who are on the way to hell anyway are merely collateral damage.

What difference does it make they were bound for hell anyway, they were after all filthy wicked sinners.

Well maybe they would have preferred to not be born at all than to be born and then spend eternity in hell because they were not the select.

Sounds more like science fiction than the God of the Bible who came and spoke to Adam and clothed Him after the fall.
Yes I understand your frustration with the God of the Bible, He doesn't meet your fallen sinful and wicked expectations. I wish there was something I could do to make you feel beter, but I'm afraid nobody can change God. he is the same yesterday, today and forever more.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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I don't think you understand how ridiculous is the suggestion that the God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4) then purposely doesn't reach out and save some and bring them to the truth even though they would have been saved if he would have just reached out to save them.

See, the gospel is already gracious and undeserved and glorious without adding in this Calvinist crap that says some are lost simply because God chose to not save them even though they would have accepted the gospel and have been saved if he'd just reached out to them. Adding that ridiculous twist doesn't make an already glorious gospel now glorious. The gospel is gracious and glorious in that no man can accept the gospel through faith and be saved except that God in his mercy and grace first extends the opportunity and the power to be saved to them.
Unlike you Arminians we never question or judge the things that God does, He has the right to do as He pleases with His puppets. Maybe He doesn't want heaven to be overcrowded with puppets, I wouldn't blame Him. I don't like crowds and traffic either, s o it wouldn't surprise me if that was one of the motivating factors.

In any case we believe you committed a grievous sin by judging God, He will punish everyone who questions Him. We must remember that we are filthy, wicked vile sinners and He is Holy and pure so how dare such a low form of life question the Highest God.

Gods elect will rejoice with Him when He casts all those who don't know Him into the lake of fire, we look forward to the day that justice is served.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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I do in fact take God at his Word:

" 1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. "-1 Timothy 2:1-5

The word plainly says we are to pray for all men and that God wants all men to be saved and that Jesus is the ransom for all men to be saved. But you say he does not want all men saved and that Jesus is only the ransom for some men and keeps some from being saved who would otherwise turn to him and be saved. And that is somehow glorious.

Like I say, I don't want to destroy your faith. I want you to toss this nonsense aside and do what really matters--live for Christ in a changed and holy and godly life and don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that the sum total of being a Christian means having accurate doctrine about curious but meaningless things. The Christian life is about how you live, not about what doctrines you are sure are the right ones.
The doctrine of predestination and election are vital components of the Gospel, if we get these wrong then the whole Gospel is corrupted and a corrupt Gospel will not save a person.

These doctrines assert that God is sovereign over all things, we don't believe in the Arminius god who's power and sovereignty is limited down to a size that fits our fallen understanding.

I have a hundred verses to support Calvinism and you guys have a few weak verses which are taken out of context.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Unlike you Arminians we never question or judge the things that God does, He has the right to do as He pleases with His puppets. Maybe He doesn't want heaven to be overcrowded with puppets, I wouldn't blame Him. I don't like crowds and traffic either, s o it wouldn't surprise me if that was one of the motivating factors.

In any case we believe you committed a grievous sin by judging God, He will punish everyone who questions Him. We must remember that we are filthy, wicked vile sinners and He is Holy and pure so how dare such a low form of life question the Highest God.

Gods elect will rejoice with Him when He casts all those who don't know Him into the lake of fire, we look forward to the day that justice is served.
How presumptuous of you. You judge others and by the same measure you will be judged.

God does not delight in the death of the wicked. There will be no rejoicing at the great white throne judgment.

Your youthful zeal is running way out of bounds. Get to know God on a personal basis. Take the mind of Christ. What greater love for sinners which we all were before God called us into His great salvation. God called the Jew first then us even more unworthy Gentiles.

God loved us when we did not love God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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The doctrine of predestination and election are vital components of the Gospel, if we get these wrong then the whole Gospel is corrupted and a corrupt Gospel will not save a person.

These doctrines assert that God is sovereign over all things, we don't believe in the Arminius god who's power and sovereignty is limited down to a size that fits our fallen understanding.

I have a hundred verses to support Calvinism and you guys have a few weak verses which are taken out of context.
That must be why Christ and the apostles stressed the love of God.

Please cease from the condescending accusations. You are young and only parroting what you have been taught. That is the shortest path to being seen as foolish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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That's the kind of thinking most of us find repulsive. Like I said, Calvinist are the only ones I know of who cannot correctly interpret John 3:16. And that is amazing!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

WORLD....KOSMOS

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
the world, the universe
the circle of the earth, the earth
the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Would you like me to give you the definition of WHOSOEVER?
John 3:16 was spoken to believers and sure enough whosoever believes in Him from the entire world is saved. This is true, we see that God's elect come from all over the entire world. Next please!!!
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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John 3:16 was spoken to believers and sure enough whosoever believes in Him from the entire world is saved. This is true, we see that God's elect come from all over the entire world. Next please!!!
Not quite. Jesus spoke those words to the Jews who flatly rejected Him.

Jesus did not come to the Gentiles.

There is much lacking in your discipleship.

For the cause ofChrist
Roger
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Posts here about works is....well...... just funny;

If a true Christian does not do G-d's work......pray tell...who will be doing it?