OT Salvation?
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And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us. Deut. 6:24,25
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Good catch! And this is in keeping with this from Luke 1
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
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Faith without deeds is dead, and a dead faith is no faith at all, therefore obedience is just as necessary for salvation as faith.
Many are called but few are chosen. (Because few do more than wear God's name, they obey Him as well). God called His people out of Egypt, agreed? There were 600,000 of them, and thats only counting the men. Yet of all the israelites from the old testament, only 144,000 were saved, not 600,000+. Jesus tells à parable about the lazy wicked servant. Was he was a genuine servant of the master? Yes. Where did he end up? "Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" (hell).
Many are called but few are chosen. (Because few do more than wear God's name, they obey Him as well). God called His people out of Egypt, agreed? There were 600,000 of them, and thats only counting the men. Yet of all the israelites from the old testament, only 144,000 were saved, not 600,000+. Jesus tells à parable about the lazy wicked servant. Was he was a genuine servant of the master? Yes. Where did he end up? "Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" (hell).
This makes my head hurt. The 144,000 have nothing to do with the Exodus. Most of Israel perished in the wilderness because of their rebellion against God while Moses was on the mount with God.
You misapply James so there is little to discuss in this post. Obedience according to James is an evidence of salvation not a requirement for salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You misapply James so there is little to discuss in this post. Obedience according to James is an evidence of salvation not a requirement for salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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E
OT people were saved the same way Abraham was.
Gen tells us that Abraham was declared righteous because he had faiht in God, before he did any work.
It could not be by being obedient to the law. Because the law conemned everyone who does not obey every letter, And only Christ did this.
It was not animal sacrifice, Hebrews is clear. The blood of bull and goat never took away sin
It was and has always been by faith in God, In the OT they had faith God would save us, We in NT have faith God will save us, The only difference is we know how. where it was a mystery to them.
Gen tells us that Abraham was declared righteous because he had faiht in God, before he did any work.
It could not be by being obedient to the law. Because the law conemned everyone who does not obey every letter, And only Christ did this.
It was not animal sacrifice, Hebrews is clear. The blood of bull and goat never took away sin
It was and has always been by faith in God, In the OT they had faith God would save us, We in NT have faith God will save us, The only difference is we know how. where it was a mystery to them.
Because God's fire did not consume the offering?
It was not a sacrifice of blood?
IDK...I'm still examining my faith or presumption from previous post
It was not a sacrifice of blood?
IDK...I'm still examining my faith or presumption from previous post
Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
I've sensed a definite "shift" in my life/walk since coming to CC...praise God, and I really don't know anything as I ought, but I'm in the race!
Thank You, Lord.
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You are reading 1 Peter 4:18 through the lens of works salvation. There is a justifiable need to "add the ungodly and the sinner" because if the righteous need disciplinary judgments, how much more will the unrighteous deserve the wrath of God whose offer of righteousness through faith they have rejected? The Greek word "molis" means "hardly" or "scarcely" and reveals the difficulty with which believers are brought to the end of their faith--the salvation of their souls through the fires of unjust suffering, persecution, divine purging and discipline.
Your argument, and I quote, "Our obedience doesn't save us, but God only chooses to save those who obey" is an OXYMORON. God saves believers who have chosen to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9). Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16).
Your argument, and I quote, "Our obedience doesn't save us, but God only chooses to save those who obey" is an OXYMORON. God saves believers who have chosen to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9). Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16).
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
*Obedience/works which follows and is produced "out of" faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.
Unfortunately, there are many who set out to obey God (on their terms, not His) and seek salvation by works. Few are chosen because there are few who truly trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and instead, trust in their works to save them.
Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
No. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.
The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and lazy and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. *The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. *All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). *Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. Faith without works is dead, remember?
This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This wicked, lazy so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. *Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen.
I have already previously explained this to you below in posts #60 and #73.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...word-never-lose-their-salvation.177734/page-3
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...se-their-salvation.177734/page-4#post-3640402
Only the unrighteous (not the righteous) end up in hell (Matthew 25:46; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
*Obedience/works which follows and is produced "out of" faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.
Unfortunately, there are many who set out to obey God (on their terms, not His) and seek salvation by works. Few are chosen because there are few who truly trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and instead, trust in their works to save them.
Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
No. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.
The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and lazy and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. *The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. *All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). *Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted. Faith without works is dead, remember?
This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This wicked, lazy so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. *Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen.
I have already previously explained this to you below in posts #60 and #73.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...word-never-lose-their-salvation.177734/page-3
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...se-their-salvation.177734/page-4#post-3640402
Only the unrighteous (not the righteous) end up in hell (Matthew 25:46; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
How were those, who lived before the time that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, saved? How were their sins forgiven back then? Please explain why you believe what you do about this (and please use Scripture as part of your explanation whenever possible).
Thanks
~Deut
Thanks
~Deut
N.T. Saints saved by faith looking back to the Cross
Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was put to his account for righteousness
Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith WITHOUT the deeds/works of the Law
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE
In the grace you are, having been saved OUT OF FAITH and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF God and not of works lest any man should boast...!!
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In both the Old and New Testaments it takes a blood sacrifice to take away our sins. In the Old Testament the preferred sacrifice was an unblemished Lamb. Living a sinless life Jesus became the Unblemished Lamb of God and his sacrifice allows all to have the opportunity to accept his sacrifice and be saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
You have it confused. If we accept Jesus as our savior we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
When that happens our sins are imputed to Jesus and his righteousness is imputed to us. At judgement time God sees us with the blood of Christ covering our sins.
Also Jesus told Christians that we can see if a person is a Christian by looking at their fruits (works). James 2 states that works doesn't save but faith without works is dead. No works no faith. Both the quote of Jesus and James 2 make this connection
You have it confused. If we accept Jesus as our savior we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
When that happens our sins are imputed to Jesus and his righteousness is imputed to us. At judgement time God sees us with the blood of Christ covering our sins.
Also Jesus told Christians that we can see if a person is a Christian by looking at their fruits (works). James 2 states that works doesn't save but faith without works is dead. No works no faith. Both the quote of Jesus and James 2 make this connection
Romans 5
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.