Our mortal enemy has deceived the church with many lies!

[FreeNChrist]

I hope you see the error of that view soon.

I hope you see the truth of that view soon.....


"Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with Him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with Himself depends on faith." Philippians 3:8-9

 

[PeterJens]

You are wrong my friend.
WHat is deluted is a man saying he is cleaned and pure/holy, When in reality he is filthy/dark sinner.
A man who confesses it is only in Christ he can be set free and cleaned by the blood of the son, is clean,
A man who confesses all his good deeds, How righteous he is, and how better he is then all the sinners, Is deluded, for he is the filthy dark sinner..
Some people should study the pharisees closely, Take their jewish concept out. and just study why they did things, wand what they taught, many would find they are just like them.. And would stone a true believer as they stoned Stephen.
All we can pray for. Is like Saul (who was there and probably participated in the stoning and murder of Gods child) any pne can repent and be freed..

I realise EG, in a conversation, certain points need to be assumed.
But you on purpose choose to lie and miss construe what I say and stand for.

But then the idea of respecting someone, even your enemy is not in your morality.

It is through Christ we are saved, through His sacrifice we gain forgiveness and through
His love that we actually learn to walk in righteousness, walking without sin.

Now if these words above are true, then your position is a lie, and you are wrong.
So I must be lying, a hypocrite someone who has not resolved their heart, who speaks
confusion and emptiness, so I 100% understand you and where you are coming from.

The problem is He who sees the heart knows the truth, and person who speaks about
resolution of the heart, cleansing of the conscience and soul, walking in purity and being
blameless speaks from God and Christ. I am not saying a mystical cleansing, but actually
choosing what and how you desire and dwell on things, thinking on the good and uplifting
and leaving alone the sinful and self indulgent.

Now dear reader, it is your choice how you walk, I am just sharing what Jesus has taught
me, and for this I praise His name, Jesus Christ is Lord.

The great privilege of the Kingdom is we choose and share His blessing of us, and nothing
is forced, it is always walk in it and receive a blessing, what a King and Lord we follow.

 

[PeterJens]

Earning salvation

To me it is obvious to follow Christ is to walk in His ways.
To not follow Christ is to disobey His commands.

If you believe in Christ you listen to what He says. He says obey my commands.

So by not obeying His commands, you do not believe in Him.

Now this seems very tight logic, a simple consequence of Jesus's eternal words

Now Jesus's eternal words will also rule in heaven, for all eternity.
So there is not a nice cut off, pre-cross, post-cross, only an illusion of a mark for
failure and dependency, this is about getting real from the heart.

And in all honesty, I am not loading on impossible objectives onto peoples souls.
I am saying if you are called to love others, you first need to know how to love yourself.

In our society today, so many do not even know how to accept their own strengths and
weaknesses, and out of the bitterness and confusion of the desire to be something else,
they love and hate people who fit their ideal, and hate the exact thing they loath.

But it is this whole cycle that Jesus calls us to break by first asking ourselves how we love,
and why. And it is here were most just walk away. But you guys claim to want to follow
Jesus?

But do you really? Or is this just another fad, maybe on a sunday emotional high, a live it
up sensation?

Of the 100's who come to Christ is crusades, only a handful 10 years later are in church.

But my approach is simple. Find the reality, ask the questions, and walk in the truth, inside
and out. Christ is wonderful, and in the end, the Kingdom of Heaven is real, love rules, life
is eternal.

 

[glenleath]

There are three verses in Paul's epistles that are relevant to this conversation.
Romans 11:13 King James Version (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 2:16 King James Version (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ {{{according to my gospel}}}.
2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, {{{rightly dividing the word of truth}}}.
The Apostle Paul's epistles covers it all; salvation requirements and the benefits of it. (rightly dividing the world of truth is very important} For it is not all ABOUT YOU IN THE FOUR GOSPELS AND ACTS.

 

[glenleath]

Here are few more verses explaining why Jesus came down to earth and speaks to the 2 Timothy 2:15 reference about "rightly dividing" the word of truth.

Matthew 1:21 King James Version (KJV)[SUP]21 [/SUP]And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.

Matthew 2:6 King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.

Matthew 10:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But {{{go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.}}}
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 15:24 King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But he answered and said, {{{I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.}}}
Mark 16:15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every {{creature}}.

If you understand the King James Bible, you will understand that Jesus is speaking of the House of Israel (Jews) when he says "creature".

 

[glenleath]

Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: {{{it is the gift of God}}}:

It is not YOUR GRACE and it is not YOUR FAITH that saves you.

Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV) <<You only find this in the King James Bible.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, {{{but by the faith OF Jesus Christ}}}, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It is THE FAITH OF CHRIST that saves you.

Your obligations in "obeying the gospel" is a heart felt belief as in Romans 10:8-10

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[ZacharyB]

proving to who?

Proving to everyone throughout eternity why some are in heaven and some are in hell.
Haven't you heard? ... You reap what you sow ...
And this ain't talkin' about believin' the gospel.
Come out of kindergarden into the light.

 

[ZacharyB]

I am being led to quote multitudes of NT verses
which warn believers that they can lose salvation.
Sorry that y'all choose to ignore them!

You must reconcile the anti-OSAS verses
with your beloved OSAS verses!
Ignoring one group over the other just won't cut it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Earning salvation

To me it is obvious to follow Christ is to walk in His ways.
To not follow Christ is to disobey His commands.

If you believe in Christ you listen to what He says. He says obey my commands.

So by not obeying His commands, you do not believe in Him.

Now this seems very tight logic, a simple consequence of Jesus's eternal words

By what you just said, If we take it at face value, No one will ever be saved, Because no one obeys Gods commands (this would take perfection) so according to you. No one believes in god. Because no one lives up to his standard.

or else, You have to lower Gods standard. And say, I am ok, it is just everyone else who sins their sin, which are non believers and lost..

so either way, You have just condemned everyone to hell.. or lowered Gods standard so you make it, but those below you do not..

Now Jesus's eternal words will also rule in heaven, for all eternity.
So there is not a nice cut off, pre-cross, post-cross, only an illusion of a mark for
failure and dependency, this is about getting real from the heart.

Yes they will stand forever. The word of God will never fail

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

This is Gods standard, You do every word written perfect. Or your cursed. How well have you done?

For this reason, as paul said through inspiration of God. All have sinned and fall short of Gods standard (the glory)

And as James made it clear. I can live my HWOLE life, and not break the law. But if I fall short in one aspect. No matter how small that sin may be, I am guilty of the WHOLE LAW. What is the penalty? Death, The curse iposed by the law. The curse jesus because om our behalf so we may be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God IN HIM.. Not that we can MAKE OURSELVES this righteousness.

Yes Peter. Gods word will stand forever. Your guilty, I am guilty, we are all doomed, Unless Christs blood and righteousness is credited to our account. because as paul also said, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But BY HIS MERCY HE SAVED US.

You can't save yourself peter.. No one can, So stop trying.

And in all honesty, I am not loading on impossible objectives onto peoples souls.
I am saying if you are called to love others, you first need to know how to love yourself.

This is impossible. You can not love others until you experience Gods love first. Mans love is not Gods love, It is a self righteous love, which falls short of Gods standard of love.

So yes, You are placing an impossible condition on people even you yourself can not keep apart from Gods saving grace and unconditional love being applied completely to you.

In our society today, so many do not even know how to accept their own strengths and
weaknesses, and out of the bitterness and confusion of the desire to be something else,
they love and hate people who fit their ideal, and hate the exact thing they loath.

But it is this whole cycle that Jesus calls us to break by first asking ourselves how we love,
and why. And it is here were most just walk away. But you guys claim to want to follow
Jesus?

But do you really? Or is this just another fad, maybe on a sunday emotional high, a live it
up sensation?

Of the 100's who come to Christ is crusades, only a handful 10 years later are in church.

But my approach is simple. Find the reality, ask the questions, and walk in the truth, inside
and out. Christ is wonderful, and in the end, the Kingdom of Heaven is real, love rules, life
is eternal.

1. Man has no strengths,, Thats your first mistake The only strength man has is to live in the flesh, he is totally powerless to live in the spirit until given Gods power to lead him there.
2. Only God can give us strength, It is his power. not our own power.

Maybe it is you getting emotional on Sunday? and thus makes you think you have been given Gods love? I am sure the pharisee felt the same way when they had their day in tabernacle.

 

[PeterJens]

By what you just said, If we take it at face value, No one will ever be saved, Because no one obeys Gods commands (this would take perfection) so according to you. No one believes in god. Because no one lives up to his standard.

Here is the root cause of the lie you see before you.
Obeying Gods commands does not make you perfect.

The rich young man obeyed Gods commands. He was not perfect.
He loved the security of his money and would not follow Christ.

Paul argues continually, being blameless is not righteousness, it is righteous to know
God and have faith in Him. To be righteous is to know God, in your heart, and to follow.

Unfortunately the rest of the diatribe is junk to me, because I follow Christ and believe Him.
I suggest you do likewise, but obviously you have some serious problems with this.

EG - you have always projected false things on to me, but that is all it creates delusion.
Get your heart right, start being honest with yourself. You are just lying about me, I am
speaking the truth from God. But I thank you for teaching me one real reality, people will
invent stuff to justify themselves, when life and reality are screaming they have too many
unresolved issues in their lives to see the truth.

This is how I know where I stand, because I have resolved all my issues before the Lord.
And I encourage you to do also. Because only when you are peace with everyone, forgiven
all the debts owed to you, see people in Christ love and their weaknesses and strengths, only
then can truth begin to shine through, and in truth, few find this place.

But God bless you all, and may you find the Kingdom of Heaven for real in your daily walk, Amen

 

[ZacharyB]

But God bless you all, and may you find the Kingdom of Heaven for real in your daily walk, Amen

Have you come to any conclusions about the relationship between
entering the kingdom of God (heaven) and entering heaven itself?

I thought I had found Scriptural proof that they are basically synonomous,
but now I'm not so sure!

 

[eph610]

Have you come to any conclusions about the relationship between
entering the kingdom of God (heaven) and entering heaven itself?

I thought I had found Scriptural proof that they are basically synonomous,
but now I'm not so sure!

The Kingdom of Heaven & Kingdom of God are 2 very different things. Those that proclaim you can outright lose your salvation were never taught the difference. If you learn the difference between these 2 kingdoms, you will understand you cannot ever lose your salvation due to sin and will stop striving to obey and thrive in rest of the finished work.

The Bible clearly shows us in Black, White & Red the differences of these 2 Kingdoms.

 

[PeterJens]

Have you come to any conclusions about the relationship between
entering the kingdom of God (heaven) and entering heaven itself?

I thought I had found Scriptural proof that they are basically synonomous,
but now I'm not so sure!

Have you ever read the book the great divorce by C S Lewis?

He pictures people as ghosts, not quite there on a bus trip to heaven.
It is not so much as arriving as becoming more real. The longer you stay the
more real you are.

The reality is when we start the relationship with Christ we have already
entered heaven. Geography and location seems to matter less.

I think this is why there is so little emphasis in scripture about it. Once
you know the Lord and understand He loves you, it is like which house
are you going to be in.

What has fascinated me in recent times is how much we disregard the
very things that matter, and hold on to the things that will just get
sorted out over time. But I think this comes down to how social you
are and good at communicating emotionally between people.

God is extremely good at this, being the creator, but I think not many
understand that the Lord is not intellectual like ourselves but works
with an open heart, and expects us to do likewise. Just read his number
one and two commands, but closed off people obviously miss this...

 

[glenleath]

ZacharyB, please explain the verses to me and I think you can do it without being somewhat belligerent. If you believe that something more than grace is required and you believe a person can loose his/her salvation, do we need to remove these verses from the Bible. Ephesians 1:11-13[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also (((((after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,)))))
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance ((((until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.)))))

The following verses explain very well what happens to a believer that practices sin after having been saved by the GRACE" of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]((((If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy)))); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That person will be chastised in this life or might die an early death as 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 suggest, but will not loose his/her salvation.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, [SUP]4 [/SUP]In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, ((((((((
[SUP]5 [/SUP]To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, [[[that the spirit may be saved]]]] in the day of the Lord Jesus))))))).


Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

There is ONLY ONE WAY TO FALL AWAY FROM THE GRACE OF GOD MY FRIEND and I believe you may be close to do so, just like the Jews the Apostle Paul's was speaking to who could not get away of the requirement of KEEPING THE LAW; The Apostle Paul speaking in Galatians 5:4 explain it very well~~~~read it carefully my friend;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; {{{{{ye are fallen from grace.}}}}}}
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of [[[righteousness by faith]]].

There is no grace for those who seek be justified by law keeping.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the root cause of the lie you see before you.
Obeying Gods commands does not make you perfect.

The rich young man obeyed Gods commands. He was not perfect.
He loved the security of his money and would not follow Christ.

And there you have it folks. Proof positive that he believes we have to be obedient But obedience which leads to salvation is not Gods demand (obey ALL OF THE WORDS written in this law) But some arbitrary demand, Which I am sure peter himself can not tell us what that is..

He mentions the rich young man who claimed to have obeyed Gods commands in order to gain eternal life. Jesus tried to show him he was wrong (sell all you have) and the person did not get it, He loved his money more than god. meaning he broke the first command, So according to Paul, This rich man sinned and fell short. But he did not believe it, According to James, He broke the first command, Thus he was guilty of breaking the whole law. What was the penalty? Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey ALL THE WORDS WRITTEN.

He did not obey Gods commands,, He could not even keep the first one. let alone the rest.

edit, the rest of this post is not worth even responding to. I just proved my point.

God told moses, and paul reiterated, Cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every jot and title of the law.

Thats Gods stadard of obedience, Your standard is watered down, You just proved it..Enough said..

 

[glenleath]

The Apostle Paul says;
2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst ((we are at home in the body)), [[[we are absent from the Lord]]]:

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be {{{absent from the body}}}, and to be [[[present with the Lord]]].
Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6
And hath [[[ raised us up together]]], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven;
Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

~~~and Christ will reign over it.
Revelation 5:9-11 King James Version (KJV)[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

There is a lot of things going on in the heavens and the only way to become a part of it is to believe according to Romans 10:8-10

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[disciplemike]

I hope you see the truth of that view soon.....


"Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For His sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ and become one with Him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with Himself depends on faith." Philippians 3:8-9

Indeed you could study and pray and praise 12 hours per day, and practice every commandment - and if you don't know Messiah, it would still be a loss.
However, if you say ONLY His righteousness matters, then that is the same as saying ALL SIN is acceptable for a believer. Can't do that.

A believer can't take a stand against homosexual marriage, abortion, murder, lying, etc if that same believer says ONLY the righteousness of Messiah matters.

I hope you see that.

 

[PeterJens]

Indeed you could study and pray and praise 12 hours per day, and practice every commandment - and if you don't know Messiah, it would still be a loss.
However, if you say ONLY His righteousness matters, then that is the same as saying ALL SIN is acceptable for a believer. Can't do that.

A believer can't take a stand against homosexual marriage, abortion, murder, lying, etc if that same believer says ONLY the righteousness of Messiah matters.

I hope you see that.

It is like talking to lawless people who say the law still matters. If they lived in muslim countries
where the only law is if you can work out some way of making in religious, they would appreciate
when law works it brings life.

Paul was a bit of a religious nut, saying law brought death, because in the justification sense
he was 100% correct, but not in the civil sense.

 

[notuptome]

Indeed you could study and pray and praise 12 hours per day, and practice every commandment - and if you don't know Messiah, it would still be a loss.
However, if you say ONLY His righteousness matters, then that is the same as saying ALL SIN is acceptable for a believer. Can't do that.

A believer can't take a stand against homosexual marriage, abortion, murder, lying, etc if that same believer says ONLY the righteousness of Messiah matters.

I hope you see that.

Standing against those things does not add to the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness of Christ is complete and eternal.

I support standing against those things because they are an affront to the righteousness of Christ not to add to it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

And there you have it folks. Proof positive that he believes we have to be obedient

Now let us break this down into its reality for these believers.
Christ is saying if you love you fulfill the law. John, Peter and Paul say the same thing.
We know we are in Christ because we obey the law.

So here is the slander and lie. The lie is I am saying we need to be Jews. I have never said that.
I have not even specified how we fulfill the law, just we need to obey Christ. And this is only
possible in the heart sense through the Holy Spirit and the cross transforming oneself.
But this transformation is often not some mysterious act, it is in realising God died on the cross
for real and is your friend like I have friends and family who I know.

If you loose one of them you would grieve. So equally loosing Christ to death is such a loss,
a pain, devastating, yet because He rose again it is mitigated.

The fact that obviously not only am I lied about I am treated like an enemy of people who
claim to know and follow Jesus yet deny His own words. That is blindness.

Now there is a contradiction within the faith. Every letter of the law is written about
the nation of Israel and the temple. The temple is no more because Jesus is the sacrifice
for sins, and Israel was destroyed as a nation. So much of the law no longer applies to
anyone. So quoting bits about the law and cursing is just stupid, because it is denying
the obvious reality. It is just as stupid as saying we are not a moral people without
standards or principles. But this is exactly what this group is claiming and condemning anyone
who looks at God, the giver of the most advanced national legal system of its day, and says
He does not care about righteousness and law. They do not know God to even suggest such
a thing. What they do have is euphoria about being lawless and forgiven, along with a lot
of religious words that loose all meaning without the proper relationship context.

So in the end though they appear to be the same they deny Jesus real power, the power of
redeeming love, replaced with health, wealth and euphoria of being forgiven, not that you have
to even forgive anyone yourself. A sad religion which only works in a wealthy society or where
greed and aspiration are supported.