Pagan Symbols and Christianity
- Thread starter Elizabeth619
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jeremiah
10 Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord:
“Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
10 Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord:
“Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
We are supposed to learn from history. History tells us that we are to be loyal to the One True God, to stay away from pagan worship. This sin comes before any other sin in God’s eyes, and we are God’s creation. God is the boss. God rules.
The history given in the OT shows a lot of incorporating pagan ways into the worship of God that God wants. The Hebrews got tired of waiting for Moses when he met with God and received the ten commandments. If they were to trust God, they wanted to have something to look at like the pagans had in their statues, so they made a golden calf to see as they worshipped the one true God. Go read the history of life under the kings before Christ came. It is a history of God saying to just don’t use pagan ways to worship. They brought pagan ways into their worship in many ways, and defended it with almost the same words used in this post.
We can use all kinds of human reasoning to decide what came first, the pagans or Christians in a symbol, but what we are to do is listen to God about it. He outlines how we are to worship. God says follow Him, not men. So where did a worship idea come from, from God or men?
Paul scolds and scolds about how the Jews were absolutely wrong to tell the gentiles they couldn’t come in without Jewish rituals when Paul had spent so much time explaining the Holy Spirit, and what WAS required. And the Jews were all gung ho about doing so they forgot about being. So we take this to mean we can get away with anything as long as our heart is right. But there is scripture telling where this comes to an end. If your heart is right it will lead you to doing, and if it doesn”t, then your heart really isn’t right.
There is a saying about a strong boss: “when he says jump, I say how high?” There is no boss more powerful,more holy, more wonderful than God.
The history given in the OT shows a lot of incorporating pagan ways into the worship of God that God wants. The Hebrews got tired of waiting for Moses when he met with God and received the ten commandments. If they were to trust God, they wanted to have something to look at like the pagans had in their statues, so they made a golden calf to see as they worshipped the one true God. Go read the history of life under the kings before Christ came. It is a history of God saying to just don’t use pagan ways to worship. They brought pagan ways into their worship in many ways, and defended it with almost the same words used in this post.
We can use all kinds of human reasoning to decide what came first, the pagans or Christians in a symbol, but what we are to do is listen to God about it. He outlines how we are to worship. God says follow Him, not men. So where did a worship idea come from, from God or men?
Paul scolds and scolds about how the Jews were absolutely wrong to tell the gentiles they couldn’t come in without Jewish rituals when Paul had spent so much time explaining the Holy Spirit, and what WAS required. And the Jews were all gung ho about doing so they forgot about being. So we take this to mean we can get away with anything as long as our heart is right. But there is scripture telling where this comes to an end. If your heart is right it will lead you to doing, and if it doesn”t, then your heart really isn’t right.
There is a saying about a strong boss: “when he says jump, I say how high?” There is no boss more powerful,more holy, more wonderful than God.
I understand that the symbols of the pagan holidays of old do not mean the same things as they do today. Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny do not cause us to worship pagan deities of the past.
However, I must ask a question of importance to those in Christ Jesus.......... Who gets the glory during these holiday festivities? If Christmas still represents Christ being born, then give glory to whom glory is due. If Easter still represents Christ being risen from the dead, then give glory to whom glory is due. Anything else becomes pagan and idolatry.......... not of the old gods from which they originally came, but the new gods that we make them. New gods or old gods, paganism is still paganism. Whomever you give the glory to is the one you worship, period. It is truly important that we honor Christ during these holidays. To do anything less is sin.
However, I must ask a question of importance to those in Christ Jesus.......... Who gets the glory during these holiday festivities? If Christmas still represents Christ being born, then give glory to whom glory is due. If Easter still represents Christ being risen from the dead, then give glory to whom glory is due. Anything else becomes pagan and idolatry.......... not of the old gods from which they originally came, but the new gods that we make them. New gods or old gods, paganism is still paganism. Whomever you give the glory to is the one you worship, period. It is truly important that we honor Christ during these holidays. To do anything less is sin.
P
The problem, RedTent, is that it is simply not true that Christian worship and observance is based on anything pagan. All kind of claims are made and accusations hurled and arguments put forth and assumptions made, but they are like all other works of darkness, shadows without substance that disappear in the light of the truth.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
P
Then if you have the patience let's take a good, hard look at all the actual historical evidence and see where it leads. Fair enough? But I give you fair warning, there is a wealth of evidence to consider so it's not an easy quest. But the primary thing to always keep in mind when someone is telling you this or that about history ... insist that they prove what they are saying by giving you chapter and verse from an actual historical document or archaeological artifact. And don't be surprised if they just ignore your request, which is invaribly what happens when someone doesn't actually have any historical or archaeological evidence to offer. And sometimes you'll find that they do, but when you look up the information, they have misrepresented the history. I see that a lot in discussions about the Council of Nicea and Constantine. So be very slow to accept anything any one says and only then after you have proven it to be true yourself.
So it's not something that can be accomplished in a few posts on a Christian chat board, it will take time and diligent research, but perhaps we can make a good start. As the old saying goes, "Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow, if one would find pearls, he must dive below."
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
So it's not something that can be accomplished in a few posts on a Christian chat board, it will take time and diligent research, but perhaps we can make a good start. As the old saying goes, "Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow, if one would find pearls, he must dive below."
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
I saw your questions and I take them seriously, enough so that I have a lot to share with you about it, but let me get home and get my notes together, it's been a long time since I talked about Easter eggs!
W
Here is a simple question if you were to read the whole bible from front to back without anyone twisting scripture what day would you keep for the sabbath and what would be your feast days after everything is said and done it would be the same as Yeshua and all of HIS followers in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th century all the way till about 359 A.D. That would be friday eve. till sat. eve for the sabbath and Lev. 23 for the 7 feasts of YHWH. PS. Isa. 66; 22 this will be forever glory to GOD The enemy of GOD deceiveth the whole world Rev 12; 9 GOD forbids us to take on the ways of the world Jer. 10 I think if we as the body spent more time fighting for what Yeshua said instead of selling corp. usa and these clearly pegan days which have nothing holy about them we would make a bigger difference to this doomed world.
This is exactly where I am at!! I have also found that two people can report on history, not contradict each other, but come out with different conclusions because of what they choose to report. I was doing this very thing, though, as I decided to tract the relationship between Jew and Gentile from the first of the church. I have been using historians who top universities endorse, thinking they know better than I to select ones with truth.
I am basing the post in this thread on a study of the 400 years of the kings of Judah and Israel with some background of the culture of that period. For that, I am taking the word of one man who did extensive research of that period. He mentions the dead sea scrolls and how it opened up language so more hisory could be read, and from all I have been able to gather, he is very reliable. Right now, I am studying King Joshiah as he tore down idols and reestablished temple worship.
This is not an easy study, one accomplished in mohths. And always, our decision of most of today's church that all this is only for those jews who rejected Christ and not to be listened to rears its head.
I am basing the post in this thread on a study of the 400 years of the kings of Judah and Israel with some background of the culture of that period. For that, I am taking the word of one man who did extensive research of that period. He mentions the dead sea scrolls and how it opened up language so more hisory could be read, and from all I have been able to gather, he is very reliable. Right now, I am studying King Joshiah as he tore down idols and reestablished temple worship.
This is not an easy study, one accomplished in mohths. And always, our decision of most of today's church that all this is only for those jews who rejected Christ and not to be listened to rears its head.
Ok, back to the NEW TESTAMENT......
1 Cor 8:4 We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”
Now... who said anything about making symbols sacred?
Having a big tacky inflatable Easter bunny in your front yard is not making anything sacred.
It's nothing more than a big, tacky piece of material shaped like a creepy rabit. There is no good or evil behind it. It's just an object. No one is glorifying it or putting it before God. No one is bowing down to it. It is just a decoration.
1 Cor 8:4 We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.”
Now... who said anything about making symbols sacred?
Having a big tacky inflatable Easter bunny in your front yard is not making anything sacred.
It's nothing more than a big, tacky piece of material shaped like a creepy rabit. There is no good or evil behind it. It's just an object. No one is glorifying it or putting it before God. No one is bowing down to it. It is just a decoration.