Paper Money and Fiat Currency is the Mark of the Beast

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presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I am coming in late to the party, responding to the OP. I don't know how it is possible to actually read that photo.

I would like to point out that Solomon collected 666 talents of gold in tribute. It was gold, not foreign currency, so that's an argument against gold being fiat currency.

I also do not care much for far-fetched interpretations that depend on someone saying, "This thing in scripture is an allegory for such and such because I say so."

The value of other commodities goes up and down constantly against gold and silver. US 'fiat currency' deflates at about 3 or 3 and a half percent per year these days, but we can see that gold can go up or down and compare that to wheat or oil going up or down. 'Non fiat' currency, like gold, is not solid and stable. When you buy bread with gold, the value of bread compared to gold goes up and down. If fiat currency is unjust somehow, why isn't gold or silver.

Peter warned that the love of silver is the root of all kinds of evil.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Exchanging paper money and fiat currency for things we need is the way to get rid of paper money, otherwise we would be left out on the street with nothing, not even the clothes on our backs, which is not the will of God, for even the Israelites took articles of gold from the Egyptians when they left Egypt. It is not difficult to live outside the financial system, I am an example of it, but to those who do not want to inconvenience themselves it is nearly impossible to persuade them to do otherwise. And that is why most of you will be condemned, because of your refusal to not only believe the truth regarding the Torah, but also the truth regarding money.
Romans 14 deals with the person with the weak-conscience position. People in your position are not to judge those who do not agree. You are saying someone will be condemned for not holding to your weird theory. The early Christians did not live outside the financial system, and most of our fiat currencies do not have someone worshipped as a false god on it. We don't use our coins to pay the false god boat keeper to go into the afterlife. Our money is less pagan in some ways.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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I agree that the law of Moses contains instructions about lending money, but which post are you referring to?
This one:

Loving your neighbor as yourself doesn't exclude the other commands of the Torah, it includes them. Meaning if you do not charge your brother interest, which is a command of the Torah, that is abiding by love towards your brother. Meaning if you forgive the debt of your brother, which is another command of the Torah, that is abiding by love towards your brother. The other commands of the Torah define how to love your neighbor specifically.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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You are correct that we don't need to argue about anything.

If someone brings up a topic for discussion, then often times it is interesting to discuss it.

Suppose someone presents a way of life, and they feel other people would benefit from also living that way.

If there is evidence, though, that the presenter does not actually practice what they are preaching, I think it's a good idea to talk about that as part of the discussion.
How is it not practising what one preach when the OP had already gotten rid of fiat money and asking other believers to do the same? Just because in the process of getting rid of his fiat money he enabled people to use fiat money? Just because he somehow used the fiat money in order to get rid of it?

How then do you propose he get rid of fiat money when the entire world will not stop using fiat money and he cannot change the world?
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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So are you referring to the Federal Reserve in the USA as the central bank?

As a student of finance you make it sound so easy ... then why do poor countries not print more money and generate wealth?
I have yet to hear your definition of fiat system. The reason poor countries became poor is because they printed too much money and generated fictitious wealth, the excess supply of money bankrupted their currency on the forex market and impoverished those who hold their currency. Printing more money and generating fictitious wealth IS the reason for poverty and worthless currencies.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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I disagree. Most employees are paid every month at least.
So you agree to work for your employer, and at the end of the week or month they give you the agreed-on amount of money.

Inflation in the USA has been fairly stable for the past several years, less than 2% I believe. Divide that up by the month or week and you are talking about a truly miniscule amount. But if you are of a math mindset, just add inflation into your calculation of whether it makes sense to work for that particular employer for that wage or not.

But I agree that a kind of theft takes place in all economies, ancient and modern. It's just part of how humans oppress each other.

If you are really concerned about theft, I would suggest looking at government taxation which often runs at 30 or 40%, far larger than inflation.

And the real estate system. I can talk more about that if you like.
I never said your employer robbed you, I said the controllers of fiat system robbed you through inflation by holding your income for you and then devaluing it over time. Taxation may be considered another form of theft but my point about theft via fiat system remains solid.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
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Solomon didn't 'take all the gold' from everyone under his rule.
That's wrong. Read the account of the 666 talents again.

1 Kings 10: 14-15 ISV
Solomon’s annual revenue was 666 talents of gold, not including revenue from traders, merchants, and from all the kings of Arabia and the governors of the land.

The Queen of Sheba gave Solomon a one time gift of 120 talents of gold (1 Kings 10:10), not an annual revenue.

The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills!
(1 Kings 10:27)

hey doesn't that sound like inflation? :unsure:

gold & silver is fiat currency too. it's not like anyone needed it for electronics or solar cells when they started using it as a medium of exchange. it's representative wealth, through means of currency, and currency exchange certainly didn't begin with Solomon.
Like I said, fiat principle of assigning values can be applied to ANYTHING, including gold. But originally, gold was used in terms of measuring how much a piece of gold weighed. The measured weight of a piece of gold CANNOT be changed like assigned values.

My lord, hearken unto me: the land is worth four hundred shekels of silver; what is that betwixt me and thee? bury therefore thy dead. And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the audience of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant.
(Genesis 23:15-16)

'current money with the merchant'

interesting phrase, isn't that? how is it translated in Mandarin?

welcome to the forums :)
Shekel is a form of weight measurement, not an assigned value. A piece of silver is measured in terms of its weight, and then used by Abraham. Again, weights cannot be changed like assigned values. Assigned values is the principle of fiat economy and is a lie.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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*shrug* i get what's called a 'cost-of-living' ((lol, loaded term?)) adjustment to my wages on a periodical basis. so my labor still returns approximately the same amount of meal.
i use my wages in the type of exchange system that's a characteristic of civilization to procure goods, because '
a righteous man cares for his animal'


my labor isn't my own tho; my strength isn't mine. God provides these things to me. neither are they 'my animals' but the Lord's; everything in heaven and earth is His. so i am just acting as His servant to do these things -- something i've always found puzzling about this thread's topic is how selfish it appears to me, at the basis of the argument, to complain about how you're somehow being cheated out of 'your gold' -- all the gold is His. can i make it 'not belong to Him anymore' by serving in some way that doesn't give an optimal return for my labor? pfff nope. what matters is i continue humbly before Him, not that i complain about receiving whatever it is i think is 'my due.'
i just find it a weird mindset.
You willingly live in a system that robs you, that's your choice. You still don't realise when you rely on the fiat economy, you let OTHERS hold your wealth and then they devalue it through inflation and currency fluctuations.

No, the purpose of this thread is to exhort people to live in obedience to God. It does not matter whether you believe in the mark of the beast as fiat money or not. By using this system, you indirectly approve of how this system works, and approve of the evil that comes along with it in terms of robbing people of their wealth over time. That is YOU participating in evil.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
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I am coming in late to the party, responding to the OP. I don't know how it is possible to actually read that photo.

I would like to point out that Solomon collected 666 talents of gold in tribute. It was gold, not foreign currency, so that's an argument against gold being fiat currency.

I also do not care much for far-fetched interpretations that depend on someone saying, "This thing in scripture is an allegory for such and such because I say so."

The value of other commodities goes up and down constantly against gold and silver. US 'fiat currency' deflates at about 3 or 3 and a half percent per year these days, but we can see that gold can go up or down and compare that to wheat or oil going up or down. 'Non fiat' currency, like gold, is not solid and stable. When you buy bread with gold, the value of bread compared to gold goes up and down. If fiat currency is unjust somehow, why isn't gold or silver.

Peter warned that the love of silver is the root of all kinds of evil.
The 666 talents of gold collected by Solomon is like a prelude to the fiat economy whereby the gold possessed by the citizens are collected by the Central banks and then worthless paper is issued as money with arbitrarily assigned values on them. The true and honest way of using gold is to measure its weight, not assign a value to it. Once measured, the weight of a piece of gold cannot be changed so the value of gold held by a person can never change. But fiat money is a lie and its values constantly change because it was based on assigned values.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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373
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The 666 talents of gold collected by Solomon is like a prelude to the fiat economy whereby the gold possessed by the citizens are collected by the Central banks and then worthless paper is issued as money with arbitrarily assigned values on them. The true and honest way of using gold is to measure its weight, not assign a value to it.
If there were some Biblical reason to think that fiat currency were the mark of the beast, that would still be a weak argument. You got nothin'.

Whenever the price of wheat, apples, brick, etc. goes up and down versus gold the value of gold changes in comparison to those other items. Everything is floating in a free market.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
41
28
Romans 14 deals with the person with the weak-conscience position. People in your position are not to judge those who do not agree. You are saying someone will be condemned for not holding to your weird theory. The early Christians did not live outside the financial system, and most of our fiat currencies do not have someone worshipped as a false god on it. We don't use our coins to pay the false god boat keeper to go into the afterlife. Our money is less pagan in some ways.
For much of the early church, money was still based on weight measurement of silver or gold. That is a proper use of gold and silver.

By using the fiat system, you indirectly approve of its evil and dishonesty and participate in evil. That is your judgment on whether you want to part of the system.
 

Enxu

Active member
Jan 13, 2020
223
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If there were some Biblical reason to think that fiat currency were the mark of the beast, that would still be a weak argument. You got nothin'.

Whenever the price of wheat, apples, brick, etc. goes up and down versus gold the value of gold changes in comparison to those other items. Everything is floating in a free market.
I NEVER asked you to believe that fiat currency is the mark of the beast, I am telling you that the fiat system is evil.

You still don't know what is the difference between assigning values to gold and measuring weights of gold, do you? The first one is fiat economy and is based on lies, the second one is an honest use of gold because weights don't change like assigned values.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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That's wrong. Read the account of the 666 talents again.

1 Kings 10: 14-15 ISV
Solomon’s annual revenue was 666 talents of gold, not including revenue from traders, merchants, and from all the kings of Arabia and the governors of the land.
the word 'revenue' isn't in verse 14. it literally says 'the weight of the gold that came to Solomon in one year' -- it's the next verse, 'not including' the income ((i.e revenue)) from traders and merchant ships, kings of Arabia and governors of the country.

why isn't the total income listed here? why isn't the revenue from his merchant fleet and collected through governors part of the total given? v.15 where it says income from kings of Arabia & governors -- is that tribute from subjugated kingdoms in the Levant and taxes through governors?

the chapter goes on to say people from all over the world came to see him, and brought him gifts. which category is that in, 'what came to him' or 'the income from trade, Arabian kings & from governors' ?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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You willingly live in a system that robs you, that's your choice. You still don't realise when you rely on the fiat economy, you let OTHERS hold your wealth and then they devalue it through inflation and currency fluctuations.
in the post you replied to, i think you missed the part where i said i depend on God, not an economic system. He provides my strength and He provides my opportunity to use my strength to provide for those He provided to live with me, under the roof He also provided.
all the wealth belongs to Him, and He distributes it. what He gives cannot be devalued because true value originates and is measured by Him. ((IMO))
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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in the post you replied to, i think you missed the part where i said i depend on God, not an economic system. He provides my strength and He provides my opportunity to use my strength to provide for those He provided to live with me, under the roof He also provided.
all the wealth belongs to Him, and He distributes it. what He gives cannot be devalued because true value originates and is measured by Him. ((IMO))
You should also be asking Him whether your usage of an inherently evil and deceptive system like the fiat economy is pleasing to Him. My conviction is that it is not pleasing to God.
 

posthuman

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You should also be asking Him whether your usage of an inherently evil and deceptive system like the fiat economy is pleasing to Him. My conviction is that it is not pleasing to God.
The burden He put on my heart is pretty clear: do not love money.
Wisdom's reward is better than silver - whoever loves gold never has enough. I have learned how to be content.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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The burden He put on my heart is pretty clear: do not love money.
Wisdom's reward is better than silver - whoever loves gold never has enough. I have learned how to be content.
Good then, I hope you will abandon this system if God tells you its evil. Keep seeking.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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This is the first time I've ever encountered a teaching like this,
It's funny how you say you've never heard of this before, but you went directly to this inactive, buried thread as soon as you joined the forum, and quickly decided Christians using currency are engaging in sin.

Can i ask how that came to pass?
 
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