Paper Money and Fiat Currency is the Mark of the Beast

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EleventhHour

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The OP. Do you know him are you one of his followers ... I now he has followers.
Your assertion..

Even the OP said it’s completely ok to use the fiat currency to exchange for food and necessities.
He was adamant that even a penny was enough to condemn a person... so can you tell me where he makes that statement.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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The OP. Do you know him are you one of his followers ... I now he has followers.
Your assertion..
He gave an advice about exchanging fiat currency for food and necessities on his website. No I don’t follow anyone but Jesus and what He taught in the Gospel.

He was adamant that even a penny was enough to condemn a person... so can you tell me where he makes that statement.
Then you don’t even understand what he’s saying. He’s saying if you continue using fiat money indefinitely without any desire to get rid of it you are receiving the mark.
 

Enxu

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Does that mention fiat currency?
No, but the Gospel did mention that all liars will have a part in the lake of fire. Assigning arbitrary values to worthless paper and creating fictitious wealth (what fiat system is about) certainly sounds like lying.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I’m not trying to blame anyone. Even the OP said it’s completely ok to use the fiat currency to exchange for food and necessities.

It is about keeping a clean conscience before God and not wounding the conscience of fellow Christians. Given your example about Christians buying from retailers that bought from factories that exploit labor, it is not a sin if they did not know about the situation. But what did Paul teach about conscience? He would not even eat meat in front of a brother if that causes the brother to stumble.
If I buy a radio at Walmart, is that going to make you go to Walmart and buy a radio using modern currency?

Also, the type of issues Paul dealt with were a lot more grounded than what you are talking about here. People were concerned with either not eating meat offered to idols (or meat that might be offered to idols) or else kosher food laws. There was at least some basis for their concern in the Old Testament.

No, wheat and barley are actual commodities that can be measured as kilograms or whatever other measurement. Trading 1kg of wheat for 1kg of barley is solid and not based on arbitrary values.
The price of these commodities goes up and down against each other just like it does against gold or fiat currency.

Paying taxes is not a sin for that matter, but collecting taxes to support a evil system is.
This why did John the Baptist give this advice?

Luke 3
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
 

Enxu

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If I buy a radio at Walmart, is that going to make you go to Walmart and buy a radio using modern currency?
No, but if I will certainly be confused and think that now using fiat currency is permissible. And if using fiat currency is indeed a sin in God’s eyes you’ve just made me think that something that is a sin (ie. using fiat currency) is permissible. That’s the real issue.
Also, the type of issues Paul dealt with were a lot more grounded than what you are talking about here. People were concerned with either not eating meat offered to idols (or meat that might be offered to idols) or else kosher food laws. There was at least some basis for their concern in the Old Testament.
Dishonest weights are also an issue talked about in the Old Testament. So I do have reasons for concerns because fiat currency is not only based on dishonesty, it is outright fictitious wealth packed with lies. Liars will have a part in the lake of fire, why shouldn’t I be concerned about using a currency that will turn me into a potential liar?
The price of these commodities goes up and down against each other just like it does against gold or fiat currency.
Which is why I said wheats and barleys should be weighed, not assigned prices.
This why did John the Baptist give this advice?

Luke 3
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
Because it is not practical or even possible for all publicans to abandon their jobs like Matthew did. But John did tell them to do their best to minimise the evil by not asking for extra tax money beyond what they were asked to collect by authorities.

The same principle should be applied to fiat currency. If you are able to abandon it like Matthew did his tax occupation, then do it. If not, minimise the evil as much as you can. That is why the OP suggested prepaying expenses and buying necessities in advance. Yet people accuse him of doing evil when he is trying to get rid of what he believes is evil.
 

Enxu

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This why did John the Baptist give this advice?

Luke 3
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
Let me just make myself clear that when I say it’s a sin to collect taxes to support an evil system I mean it is a sin to those who know it is evil and still participate in it with full approval. But if they have the desire to stop and seek to minimise the evil or ultimately forsake it altogether they will be forgiven even if they can’t practically escape it. Some publicans can’t leave the tax occupation because they have families to feed and that occupation is their only means of income. But clearly they came to John in repentance for collecting taxes, which showed they don’t approve of the system. Will they be forgiven? Of course. God is not merciless and does consider our circumstances. He looks at the heart, not outward appearances.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Jesus already mentioned what is to be obeyed from the Torah: Matthew 19:18-21
He said this to a man who did not believe in Him and who thought He could earn eternal life for himself by works.

when you find yourself in that position - when you continue in unbelief, thinking Jesus is only a wise teacher, not Messiah, not Son of God, not the LORD manifest in the flesh, and think you can save yourself by works - then this will apply to you.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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No, but the Gospel did mention that all liars will have a part in the lake of fire. Assigning arbitrary values to worthless paper and creating fictitious wealth (what fiat system is about) certainly sounds like lying.
what does being obsessed about $$$ and how you think you're not receiving 'your due' of gold sound like? to me it sounds like this:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,
they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
(1 Timothy 6:10)
i think we ought to keep this word: give to who asks of you, without demanding it back. and if someone takes your tunic, do not withhold your cloak also. how does that apply to the topic?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Let me just make myself clear that when I say it’s a sin to collect taxes to support an evil system I mean it is a sin to those who know it is evil and still participate in it with full approval.
why did Jesus say to give to Ceaser what is his due, and why did Jesus instruct Peter to pay the tax of the priests? why did He call him 'Simon' when He did this?
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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He gave an advice about exchanging fiat currency for food and necessities on his website. No I don’t follow anyone but Jesus and what He taught in the Gospel.



Then you don’t even understand what he’s saying. He’s saying if you continue using fiat money indefinitely without any desire to get rid of it you are receiving the mark.
Oh so you have been to his website and then found his thread on Christian Chat.
Rather coincidental.

I will admit I do not understand what he is saying.... and am 100% positive money is not the mark of the beast.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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He said this to a man who did not believe in Him and who thought He could earn eternal life for himself by works.

when you find yourself in that position - when you continue in unbelief, thinking Jesus is only a wise teacher, not Messiah, not Son of God, not the LORD manifest in the flesh, and think you can save yourself by works - then this will apply to you.
Wrong, there is no verse that says the man did not believe in Jesus. And Jesus did not tell him just believe in Him and stop his works.

Works is the evidence of faith, not the means to salvation. Jesus said if you love Him you will obey His commandments. John the apostle said those who don’t obey Jesus are liars if they claim to know Jesus.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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why did Jesus say to give to Ceaser what is his due, and why did Jesus instruct Peter to pay the tax of the priests? why did He call him 'Simon' when He did this?
You’re dragging the topic back to giving taxes, which I said was never the issue.
 

Enxu

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Jan 13, 2020
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what does being obsessed about $$$ and how you think you're not receiving 'your due' of gold sound like? to me it sounds like this:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,
they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
(1 Timothy 6:10)
i think we ought to keep this word: give to who asks of you, without demanding it back. and if someone takes your tunic, do not withhold your cloak also. how does that apply to the topic?
I’m done talking to people like you. I’m telling you about the evil of the fiat system but you go on to accuse me of being obsessed with money. Lol, you are certainly good at false accusations. I don’t need to defend myself against a bunch of modern day Pharisees.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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what does being obsessed about $$$ and how you think you're not receiving 'your due' of gold sound like? to me it sounds like this:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after,
they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
(1 Timothy 6:10)
i think we ought to keep this word: give to who asks of you, without demanding it back. and if someone takes your tunic, do not withhold your cloak also. how does that apply to the topic?
@posthuman the OP of this thread will take donation ...very clear on his website.

But it must be gold that is sent....lol
And I bet people do it too.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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@posthuman the OP of this thread will take donation ...very clear on his website.

But it must be gold that is sent....lol
And I bet people do it too.
I know, pretty weird, right?

Does this whole thing remind you of anything in the Bible? Do we have anyone in the Bible who complains their wages are shortchanged..? Workers in the vineyard, perhaps?
 

EleventhHour

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Nov 11, 2019
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I know, pretty weird, right?

Does this whole thing remind you of anything in the Bible? Do we have anyone in the Bible who complains their wages are shortchanged..? Workers in the vineyard, perhaps?
My thoughts exactly!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You’re dragging the topic back to giving taxes, which I said was never the issue.
No, I'm suggesting that the Roman government and the Pharisetical government are perhaps equally 'evil systems' yet we were instructed to give them the honor they are due.

If you want to frame that in terms of taxation, I would frame the flux of the value of currency as a sort of taxation imposed by the exchange system itself.
 
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