Paul and Moses, whats wrong?

Isaskar · Jan 10, 2022

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Pilgrimshope · Jan 10, 2022

“we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.”

Stephen a godly man and Christian said this before s group of Jews including Paul before his conversion about where the law came from and they hated it so much they killed him paul the Pharisee approving

Stephen an early Christian said to them

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

….Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-42, 52-54, 59‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I find it interesting that before paul received revelation of the gospel on the road to Damascus he was approving and in the group that killed Stephen for saying “the law was given by the disposition of angels “

that brought wrath from Paul and the Pharisees but then after he was converted and received revelation. He started preaching the same thing he they had stones Stephen for d then they began to try to kill Paul for teaching it

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Because israel built the calf and worshipped it while Moses was on the Mount bekng the first commandment not to do that God turned them over to the angels d put the law in Moses hands because Moses saved them when that happened

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

And Moses besought the Lord his God, ……And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:7-11, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after that look what he did

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s what Stephen was killed for saying and why oaul was being pursued and they wanted to kill him for telling the truth

God isn’t the one who has the disposition of the law this isn’t how God is it is the disposition of that angel go refuses to forgive who. Ore the name of the lord to them

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ isn’t that way he offers repentance to us and forgives sin. The law is a result of sin , was covered over with the disposition of angels who don’t forgive , and was given into
Moses hand

the gospel is God come to us in the flesh to speak his true word no angels disposition , no other mediator but him God is one and the gospel is his word

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is Gods word coming from Gods mouth and sent to all
People to believe. It’s what Paul was saying about the worshipping of angels here

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul was getting at what Stephen said the law is the ordination and disposition of angels and not of Christs because he gave them over to worship the angels the angels heard from God , then told
Moses thoer judgements and then Moses told the people that’s not Gods true word and disposition

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? ….Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-42, 53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and again here speaking of the Old Testament

“For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The angels were given rule over the ot people and ordained the laws and gave the To Moses. Definately Gods words but through thier ordonation and disposition ot doestorts it but Christ is God and speaking Gods word with Hods disposition of remission and forgiveness of sins

JStates · Jan 10, 2022

Isaskar said:

Out of all the stuff in the OP, this is the most problematic. One cannot acquire righteousness by keeping the law.

But to answer the question the OP posed, keep in mind the purpose of some of the laws the Hebrews had to keep. God was making them absolutely distinct and set apart from the other peoples of the world. It's not that eating certain things is innately sinful. Abraham wasn't bound by the dietary laws that we can see. But God was trying to illustrate this dichotomy of sanctified versus unclean as a picture of what He was doing through His workings with humanity.

Remember in the New Testament Peter's vision, where he was presented with all manner of UNCLEAN animals and told to kill and eat. He protested because he had never eaten unclean things before... but God told Him not to call unclean anything that God had cleansed. Jesus Christ had died for sins, you see, the the Gentiles, once unclean, could now have a part in the family of God through Christ. The spiritual picture represented by the dietary laws had fulfilled its purpose and is no longer needed.

A lot of the Law seems unfair or even wrong to us. For example, did you know that God excluded the handicapped from doing certain things? It served a spiritual illustration, however. Ultimately we are all unclean and infirm, and unless cleansed, cannot approach God.

Lev 21:16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 21:17 Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
Lev 21:18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Lev 21:19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
Lev 21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
Lev 21:21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
Lev 21:22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
Lev 21:23 Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them.

Blik · Jan 10, 2022

Isaskar said:

Moses taught to only eat food that was not from garbage but good food for humans. In the first covenant, the teachings were given through the fleshly commands, as they understood the flesh it was to lead to understanding of the spirit. When the new covenant was given, those same commands were given directly to our minds and heart, and the command as Paul gives it is under the new covenant.

Paul gave the same command that Moses gave about food, but not through the flesh. Food taken into the stomach is eliminated, the fleshly command was as a schoolmaster, to lead to understanding about food for the spirit of God within us.

We are not to feed our minds and spirit with garbage.

CS1 · Jan 10, 2022

Isaskar said:

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

ceremonial, civil, and moral law

Gideon300 · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Have we not done this subject to death? The Old Covenant is old because it is old. It's now obsolete. It was only ever a shadow of the reality to come anyway. And yes, some Christians insist on putting grace under the law. And you are right, they do not mix.

Isaskar · Jan 11, 2022

Gideon300 said:

The problem isn't it being the old covenant, I agree with that, obviously. My issue was, why did Paul make it sound like its teaching doctrines of devils?

That is a very strong statement for someone teaching the word of God, even if the covenant is wrong, its still a strong statement. Especially when Paul himself went and did the ceremonial rites at the temple, potentially even sacrificed animal for him as the book of Acts says.

JaumeJ · Jan 11, 2022

I read Paul, so do not take it as though I do not. Here it is, plain and simple.

Why is it so many who say they are believers of Jesus Yeshua have disputes about Paul? I hav come to the determination that I will not argue his epistles with others, for there is not end to the back and forth..

My joy is to always stand on the teaching from Jesus Yeshua as is recorded by His apostles.

You will know the tree by the fruit it bears......

pottersclay · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

Paul is spot on with what he is saying here.
Be not conformed but transformed by the renewing of your minds.
To teach that you must not eat certain foods to have a relationship with the living God is contrary to what jesus said. "It is not what enters the body that defiles but it's what proceeds out of the mouth."

Paul did not offer up sacrifice in the book of acts but celebrated the feast days as was his custom .
Some christians and Messianic jews today still observe these days.
The Pharisees of the day taught that by obeying the law one would be saved which we know is wrong.
By faith we are saved through grace which is all given by God.
We are to repent. Not abstain from certain foods,

Moses_Young · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

You guessed it. We are in a New Covenant, and it doesn't mix with the Old Covenant. If you try to keep the dietary laws, you better make sure you keep all those other Old Testament laws. Even if you can keep the rest (hint: you can't), circumcision is a particularly tricky one, as it needs to be done on the eighth day. Too early or too late - you already broke that one. Bad luck... :-|

Gideon300 · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

It's hard to be sure because there is not a lot to go on. Paul may have been making a Nazarite vow, which did not involve animal sacrfice. it could also be that Paul was wrong. Acts simply records the events. Barnabus and Paul fell out over Mark, but there is no blame apportioned.

Paul was human. His writings are inspired, just as Peter's were. Peter got it wrong. Paul could also have been wrong. In 30 years or so of ministry, I would be amazed if he did not make mistakes and errors of judgement.

Nehemiah6 · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

Paul was writing about ascetism, which was one aspect of Gnosticism (he also mentions this in Colossians). And that included vegetarianism. The context shows that it is meat -- the flesh of animals -- that was bein forbidden. And celibacy was also being demanded as a means to being righteous (as also demanded by the Catholic church). So all these were attempts to work for or earn salvation, and therefore doctrines of demons.

The New Covenant under Christ does free Christians from all dietary restrictions. However, if some choose to be vegetarians, or choose to apply the restrictions in the Law of Moses, they are perfectly free to do so. Provided that they do not judge other Christians who do not observe these restrictions. This is addressed in other epistles.

posthuman · Jan 11, 2022

To Adam He gave only seed bearing plants for food
To Noah He gave all creatures
To Israel He gave commandments separating foods
To us He says eat whatever is sold without raising questions of conscience, but if it offends you, or offends your brother, refrain

ResidentAlien · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

The spirit is deceiving because it teaches that marriage should be forbidden and certain foods should not be eaten. Marriage is given by God and is therefore good; and God created all foods and can therefore be eaten with thanksgiving.

So yes, binding dietary laws and forbidding marriage are from a deceiving spirit.

Isaskar · Jan 11, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

I do agree with it obviously as that is what the New Testament PLAINLY teaches in my opinion, this is a touchy subject for me as when I got saved I quickly fell into the hebrew roots cult, doing all the rabbinic judaism things. What woke me up from that was circumcision, that was the wake up call to me, I was thinking of doing it as it was spoken highly of in the "circles" I was in.
They really prey on your ignorance of the Bible, as a new believer you don't know whats what, so you just hear them quote the Bible and yeah thats what I gotta do, the Bible says it, I believe it, and all that, if only it were that simple.

Luckily I didn't get the procedure done as I noticed Acts 15 and Galatians, I didn't want to be cut off from grace. So I have sympathies to these hebrew roots people, as I can relate to them but they are also on the wrong track, driving on the wrong side of the road so to speak.

DavidTree · Jan 11, 2022

Isaskar said:

I want to open up a discussion about how Paul seems to imply teaching the dietary laws as binding is from a deceiving spirit.

This strikes me as very odd, as we know the law even if not applicable to us today, was not given by satan, but by God Himself.
This same Paul calls the law "Holy" in other places of the Bible, but in this particular verse (and a few similar ones) he seems to be really against people who insist on obeying the law of Moses.

Certainly obeying God's laws is not sinful, if not done for the reason of acquiring righteousness?

The verses in question are:

1 Timothy 4:1-5
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Discuss. Have I misunderstood the verse? Have you misunderstood the verse? How could something God gave be from a deceiving spirit if taught today?

My only guess is: Because we are in a new covenant and you cannot mix the two, and one could argue for animal sacrifices today as well based on the Torah, and obviously we know that would be a complete trampling on the blood of Jesus. What do you think of my guess? Agree? Disagree? Why?

1 Timothy 4:1-5 is the Holy Spirit warning of the deception that will come in the latter times.

The focus is on abandonment of marriage as holy and from God and promoting dietary spirituality by rejecting certain foods which is meat, as is now being promoted.

Paul was not speaking against Dietary Law of Moses but the Holy Spirit warning us of aspects of the End Time Deception.

Blik · Jan 11, 2022

CS1 said:

That is dividing law according to the laws of the world. God's world is different. God divided the law between laws given in stone and laws given in the heart.

Christ explained the difference in the sermon on the mount. He gave a law in stone, then he explained that law as given in the heart.

Aaron56 · Jan 11, 2022

Blik said:

"In earth as it is in heaven..."

Do you think the Father established the "do not lust after a woman in your heart" law with the Son before or after the creation of man?

CS1 · Jan 11, 2022

Blik said:

No, it is not. Moses said there were laws separating them for man and God Laws of how not to offend God and your brother

2. laws that provided the children of Israel identity through ceremonial practices i.e. Circumcision was the law of Circumcision in the 10? no. Were the requirements for the Preist in the 10? no.

Civil is just a word and ceremonial is too. Yet the Law of God is clearly seen to be structured by God and through Moses for worship to God = moral Law treatment of man = civil law and practices of the people to God = ceremonial. Two books are very clear on this

Levitus and Dueteromny

CS1 · Jan 11, 2022

Blik said:

That is dividing law according to the laws of the world. God's world is different. God divided the law between laws given in stone and laws given in the heart.

Christ explained the difference in the sermon on the mount. He gave a law in stone, then he explained that law as given in the heart.

the Laws of God profit in all things

Paul and Moses, whats wrong?

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