Paul the Liar?

[PS]

Actually I am not. But thank you joefizz for this.

Hello lightbearer, 1an was talking to your twin a few moments ago.

 

[lightbearer]

You clearly misunderstand the text and the commentary you provide as well. The phrase "why am I still being condemned as a sinner? Romans 3:7" shows the absurdity and error of your conclusion.

Ask yourself the question as to why he would be calling himself a liar, living unfaithfully &c then turn around and ask "why am I still being condemned as a sinner?"

See?

Oh boy...the way you guys through pronouns around here. You have no idea what I understand. He was speaking from the argument of a man in the flesh. It was a rhetorical question.

You don't grasp the passage

Why? Because I don't see the way you do? So be it. But I am not alone.

​

This is not the only place I have tried to share this. So with that being said. In trying to see someone else's argument I looked in a few reference books. Interestingly enough I could not find anything to support their argument. But to my glee I did find citations to support what was given to me. Here they are.​

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Henry Alford’s The Greek New Testament​

Romans 3:7​

7.] This follows (connected by γάρ) upon Rom_3:6, and shews that the supposition if carried out, would overthrow all God’s judgment, and (Rom_3:8) the whole moral life of man. How shall God judge the world? FOR, if the truth (faithfulness) of God abounded (was manifested, more clearly established) by means of my falsehood (unfaithfulness), to His glory (so that the result has been the setting forth of His glory), why any longer (ἔτι, this being so,—assuming the premises) am I also (i.e. as well as others,—am I to be involved in a judgment from which I ought to be exempt) judged (to be judged,—the pres. expressing the rule or habit of God’s proceeding) as a sinner?​

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Clarkes Commentary​

Romans 3:7​

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Jew. For if the truth of God, etc. - But to resume my reasoning (Rom_3:5): If the faithfulness of God in keeping his promise made to our fathers is, through our unfaithfulness, made far more glorious than it otherwise would have been, why should we then be blamed for that which must redound so much to the honor of God?​

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From Expositor's Greek New Testament​

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....A Jew is the speaker, or at all events the Apostle speaks in the character of one: “if my unbelief does magnify His faithfulness, is not that all that is required? Why am I, too, like the rest of the world, whose relation to God is so different, and whose judgment is so necessary, still brought into judgment?”...​

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From Vincent Word Studies​

Lie (ψεύσματι)​

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Only here in the New Testament. The expression carries us back to Rom_3:4, and is general for moral falsehood, unfaithfulness to the claims of conscience and of God, especially with reference to the proffer of salvation through Christ.​

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From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges​

Romans 3:7​

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For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”​

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John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes​

Romans 3:7​

But, may the objector reply, if the truth of God hath abounded - Has been more abundantly shown. Through my lie - If my lie, that is, practice contrary to truth, conduces to the glory of God, by making his truth shine with superior advantage. Why am I still judged as a sinner - Can this be said to be any sin at all? Ought I not to do what would otherwise be evil, that so much "good may come?" To this the apostle does not deign to give a direct answer, but cuts the objector short with a severe reproof.​

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May GOD bless and keep you and keep us in HIS Way; Jesus Christ!! Happy Thanksgiving!!!​

 

[lightbearer]

Hello lightbearer, 1an was talking to your twin a few moments ago.

lol
Hey....how goes it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes as stated Paul includes himself by his use of the word "our"in verse 5 when he says, "But if our unrighteousness commends".
That comment is actually a continuation of the previous sentence. We know this by his use of the word "but" in the before mention clause. That connection to verse four is specifically in relation to the statement, "every man a liar" This he says in connection to who are living in unbelief in verse 3.

Anyway, Paul including himself as in unrighteousness, unbelief. therefore in part a liar. Living a lie because having sinned and falling short of the Glory of God. That is why he admits in verse 7 in the first person to lie. But he states this in the continuation of his argument from the flesh, the man.

In doing this, he also states that the truth of GOD; the oracles to which they were intrusted still got promoted. So from the flesh (the man) he says why am I still judge as a sinner? This is stated in relation to verse six. God judging the World. This is said in relation to verse four, "That You should be justified in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged." Which is the whole point of Oracles in the first place.

I still can not see it.

The context is Israel having the oracles of God. His question is, If some did not believe, will their unbelief (he did not include himself in this comment, Because he is not of those who do not believe thus he is not unfaithful) make Gods faithfulness of no effect?

His answer?

No, Let God be found to be true in all, and let every man be found a liar (this has nothign to do with the unfaithfulness of those who did not believe, but the fact, God is true in all things, Men are not. Why? because all men are sinners.

Again, as it says in verse 3. some did not believe, Not all.

 

[PS]

lol
Hey....how goes it?

OK thanks, feeling more relaxed now.

 

[NayborBear]

Speaking from experience, it seems you are in a "phase" of spiritual growth and maturation. So, what's after this, you may ask? Everyone is different, but, more then likely, it's go something like this....You'll see that Paul indeed was not a liar. But, flesh man, is SO FREACKIN' GULLIBLE, that they will start to Preaching Paul, like he is the Messiah, and forget about Jesus Christ! cuz, ya see, it's a much easier "row to hoe", following Paul, and falling into the "legalistic" ditch!
Your results may vary, of course. But, more n likely? It'll go pretty much like I experienced.

A word to the wise? Only point yer making? Is the one on top of your pointy wittle head.....

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh boy...the way you guys through <sic> pronouns around here.

Pronouns? "Thrown?" Where are these alleged pronouns I'm throwing around? Here is what I said:

You clearly misunderstand the text and the commentary you provide as well. The phrase "why am I still being condemned as a sinner? Romans 3:7" shows the absurdity and error of your conclusion.

Ask yourself the question as to why he would be calling himself a liar, living unfaithfully &c then turn around and ask "why am I still being condemned as a sinner?"

See?

You don't grasp the passage.

Where in the above are pronouns thrown around at you?

You have no idea what I understand. He was speaking from the argument of a man in the flesh. It was a rhetorical question.

We've already established your OP is poorly conveyed.

Why? Because I don't see the way you do? So be it. But I am not alone.

No, because you're unclear and then arrive at erroneous conclusions, then misinterpret commentary as if it supports you.

 

[star]

Simply put, Paul was never a Liar.

 

[posthuman]

Let us look at verse 7 in context... questions are evident.. all answered as we follow line upon line..

Romans 3King James Version (KJV)

3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

"the lie" seems to me to be described in detail in vv. 10-18 -- and it applies to all not just Paul.
it's specifically spelled out in v. 9 -- which has already been charged, that all are under the power of sin, and it is a re-iteration of the 'circumcision' that is really 'uncircumcision' that he was just talking about in chapter 2 v.12 & following. notice how he comes back to that in ch. 3 v.30? because he was still talking about it: the chapter divisions are arbitrary, not actual, intended divisions of his rhetoric. Romans is all one book, not isolated verses.

 

[preacher4truth]

Soooooo...if we "follow" Paul we fall into a legalistic ditch? lolzzzz...

 

[star]

Soooooo...if we "follow" Paul we fall into a legalistic ditch? lolzzzz...

I can assure you there are those who truly believe that. lol On another site there were those who hated Paul and frequently called him a "liar".

Paul was simply an instrument of God to bring the gospel to Gentiles. And actually, nothing about Paul's life was "simple."

 

[joefizz]

I can assure you there are those who truly believe that. lol On another site there were those who hated Paul and frequently called him a "liar".

Paul was simply an instrument of God to bring the gospel to Gentiles. And actually, nothing about Paul's life was "simple."

No kidding he went from murdering people in churches and imprisoning followers of Jesus,to being humbled by Jesus and chosen as a vassal by Jesus,think how tough that was!

 

[Bogadile]

So read it again please. It is not an easy study. If you are having issues with a specific commen; ask and I will try to clarify.
The commentaries supplied should help also.

I got my complicatedtheology to redneck dictionary out and I still am lost in the sauce.

 

[joefizz]

I got my complicatedtheology to redneck dictionary out and I still am lost in the sauce.

look up "parroting" and "learning immediately"!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since you've had so much trouble conveying your point in the OP it is probable you really do not grasp it yourself. Fair enough?

To even insinuate Paul is a liar is horrible. Especially in his inspired writings. One more on here to to undermine the sufficiency & inerrancy of scripture.

 

[star]

No kidding he went from murdering people in churches and imprisoning followers of Jesus,to being humbled by Jesus and chosen as a vassal by Jesus,think how tough that was!

Think how tough it has been for God to clean up the rest of us.

 

[joefizz]

Think how tough it has been for God to clean up the rest of us.

what you talking bout,I shower lol!?

 

[NayborBear]

Soooooo...if we "follow" Paul we fall into a legalistic ditch? lolzzzz...

Yes sir! Seen it more times then you could shake a stick at! Should we get into what the definition of "new" wine is? Or, Darest we go to Paul's "motto" where he would not eat meat sacrificed unto idols, for the "sake" of the Church? Where it is even recorded that Jesus was Himself, considered quite the party animal. Guilt by association? Or, is more regal "looking", to your peers, by doing that which is right in one's own eyes, to not even be SEEN, or associate with such a seedy and downfallen lot? You wanna talk legalism to me?

So! Yes sir! Tis a ditch sir! and you yourself, probably wouldn't have to look very far. Not very far at all, in finding it!

How deep does it go? Colored easter eggs. How about those "manly" columns on public buildings, and even some churches, with their "ornately" graphical "receptors" at each end? Can you say "baal worship?" Can you say "Maypole?" Same, Same!

 

[posthuman]

Yes sir! Seen it more times then you could shake a stick at! Should we get into what the definition of "new" wine is? Or, Darest we go to Paul's "motto" where he would not eat meat sacrificed unto idols, for the "sake" of the Church? Where it is even recorded that Jesus was Himself, considered quite the party animal. Guilt by association? Or, is more regal "looking", to your peers, by doing that which is right in one's own eyes, to not even be SEEN, or associate with such a seedy and downfallen lot? You wanna talk legalism to me?

So! Yes sir! Tis a ditch sir! and you yourself, probably wouldn't have to look very far. Not very far at all, in finding it!

How deep does it go? Colored easter eggs. How about those "manly" columns on public buildings, and even some churches, with their "ornately" graphical "receptors" at each end? Can you say "baal worship?" Can you say "Maypole?" Same, Same!

i don't follow how Ishtar eggs are legalism . . ?

 

[Bogadile]

Well this thread turned out to be a trainwreck. Looks like nobody has any idea what the OP is conveying. To be quite honest I thought this was one of those anti-paul threads when I first read through the OP message. I guess I am just not qualified enough to understand. This is what you get for not having any education I guess.

Now it is time for me to do what I always do, derail threads:

Anyone excited for Christmas? We do not celebrate thanksgiving here in Finland but I am thankful for Christmas and I am especially thankful for what it represents, the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who then went on to die for our sins, was buried and then rose again to save us.

I cannot wait to argue with judaizers in december about Christmas being "pagan", it happens every year, it is like a Christmas tradition to me.