Paul the Liar?

[MarcR]

You are right its not literally in the Greek text, but the meaning is as NIV presented (thats why it is not always best to read literal translations):

[not here] εἰ δὲ ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ἐμῷ ψεύσματι ἐπερίσσευσεν εἰς τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, τί ἔτι κἀγὼ ὡς ἁμαρτωλὸς κρίνομαι;
καὶ μὴ καθὼς βλασφημούμεθα καὶ καθώς φασίν τινες ἡμᾶς λέγειν ὅτι Ποιήσωμεν τὰ κακὰ ἵνα ἔλθῃ τὰ ἀγαθά; ὧν τὸ κρίμα ἔνδικόν ἐστιν.

---

Paul frequently stylizes himself into various positions to attack it later. Its his style of writing. Sometimes, he places himself "under the law" to prove something, even though it is not his claim that he actually is etc.

Great analytical study! I would have responded much the same way; but you got three first

 

[MarcR]

Paul the liar.
In Romans 3:7 Paul says.' For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"(Rom 3:7 LITV-TSP)​

​

So once again I ask, "what was Paul's lie?"​

​

Ro 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV

let God be true, but every man a liar; The lie is a hypothetical presumption. In not having faith we contradict God's truth; thus we lie.



Ps 51:4
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. This is what is written. God is actively doing the judging and is the referent of the prounoun thou.
KJV

as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

when thou art judged is NOT what is written; when thou judgest is what is written.

I have never gotten into textual criticism; but I don't think Paul would deliberately misquote it. Does anyone know whether any MSS have the active voice. Or could this be in fact the middle voice 'when thou present thy case'?

 

[lightbearer]

"the lie" seems to me to be described in detail in vv. 10-18 -- and it applies to all not just Paul. it's specifically spelled out in v. 9 -- which has already been charged, that all are under the power of sin[SUB][/SUB]

Exactly. To fall short is of the lie. As was shared earlier Paul reveals the solution to our falling short of GOD's glory. Rom 5:2 states "Through whom also we have had access by faith into this grace in which we stood, and we glory on the expectation of the glory of God."

, and it is a re-iteration of the 'circumcision' that is really 'uncircumcision' that he was just talking about in chapter 2 v.12 & following. notice how he comes back to that in ch. 3 v.30? because he was still talking about it: the chapter divisions are arbitrary, not actual, intended divisions of his rhetoric. Romans is all one book, not isolated verses.

That is right; he starts with a thought and builds on it. Our Faith or lack of it is the issue and he starts in chapter 1 and the culmination can be found in chapter 10. Paul shared, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek; for in it the righteousness of God is revealed out of faith into faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by" "faith." For GOD has said, "Say not in thine heart, Who shallascend into heaven? (That is, to bring Christ, the Word, all that GOD wouldhave us be. HIS Commandments down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (That is, to bring up Christ, theWord, all that GOD would have us be, HIS Commandments again from the dead.) Butwhat saith it? The word (Christ; the Word, the commandments manifested in theflesh, our flesh) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, in thy heart, and in thyhand: that we may do it; that is, THE WORD OF FAITH, which we preach. And thatis the Gospel, the Kingdom of GOD (CHRIST) in you. For GOD hath said,"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saiththe Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I writethem." And HE shall be our GOD and we shall be HIS people, for it is GODthat works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. Christ (the Word, HisCommandments, GOD's will) in us the hope of Glory. For without this faith it isimpossible to please GOD.

Please notice the connections that are beingmade in the text above. Christ, the Word, all that GOD would have us be; HISCommandments are inter changeable in the text above. And mind you this work inour hearts is the Gospel and is the word of faith in which we speak. Christ in us the expectation of Glory
(Rom 1:16-17)

 

[lightbearer]

Ro 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV

let God be true, but every man a liar; The lie is a hypothetical presumption. In not having faith we contradict God's truth; thus we lie.

Exactly...and that is Paul's lie.

Ps 51:4
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. This is what is written. God is actively doing the judging and is the referent of the prounoun thou.
KJV

as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

when thou art judged is NOT what is written; when thou judgest is what is written.

I have never gotten into textual criticism; but I don't think Paul would deliberately misquote it. Does anyone know whether any MSS have the active voice. Or could this be in fact the middle voice 'when thou present thy case'?

Maaybe he was not quoting it but had that verse in mind.

 

[MarcR]

Exactly...and that is Paul's lie.


Maaybe he was not quoting it but had that verse in mind.

When he says "As it is written", he is presumably quoting!

 

[lightbearer]

You are right its not literally in the Greek text, but the meaning is as NIV presented (thats why it is not always best to read literal translations):

But such is not the case in this instance. The clause, "Someone might argue" takes away the thought of verse seven and the connection verse seven has to verse four. Where Paul is speaking corporately, every man a liar. This includes himself. And this he reiterates in verse seven. "His lie".

So rather than Paul stating in the first person that," if the truth of God abounded through his lie; why is he still judged as a sinner". It says, "someone might argue" which makes what proceeds a general statement encompassing anyone rather than Paul. Here look at it again.

7Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”

 

[trofimus]

Ro 3:3-4
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
KJV

let God be true, but every man a liar; The lie is a hypothetical presumption. In not having faith we contradict God's truth; thus we lie.



Ps 51:4
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. This is what is written. God is actively doing the judging and is the referent of the prounoun thou.
KJV

as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

when thou art judged is NOT what is written; when thou judgest is what is written.

I have never gotten into textual criticism; but I don't think Paul would deliberately misquote it. Does anyone know whether any MSS have the active voice. Or could this be in fact the middle voice 'when thou present thy case'?

Paul quotes Septuagint, MSS text is (again) wrong.

Psalm 50:4
...ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου, καὶ νικήσῃς ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Rom 3:4
Ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου καὶ νικήσεις ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Translation:
...so that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge. (Ps 50:4)
"So that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge." (R 3:4)

 

[trofimus]

Paul quotes Septuagint, MSS text is (again) wrong.

Psalm 50:4
...ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου, καὶ νικήσῃς ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Rom 3:4
Ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου καὶ νικήσεις ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Translation:
...so that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge. (Ps 50:4)
"So that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge." (R 3:4)

Hm, wait, but even though its obvious Paul quotes Septuagint (its the same except of one letter), I do not see any difference in meaning of the MSS.

 

[lightbearer]

When he says "As it is written", he is presumably quoting!

Exclamation point? Well then maybe it is written somewhere else? Maybe in a writing we do not have any more. Or one that is not used often. Such as the Septuagint?

Here is the clause from 51:4 in the LXX
LXX “και νικήσης εν τω κρίνεσθαί σε”

Here it is in Romans 3:4 και νικήσης εν τω κρίνεσθαί σε

As you can see it is the same. Basically what you are looking at is , "and will overcome in Your being judged".

 

[lightbearer]

Hm, wait, but even though its obvious Paul quotes Septuagint (its the same except of one letter), I do not see any difference in meaning of the MSS.

So you hold to the LXX more than the MSS? What of the Aramaic?

 

[lightbearer]

Paul quotes Septuagint, MSS text is (again) wrong.

Psalm 50:4
...ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου, καὶ νικήσῃς ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Rom 3:4
Ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου καὶ νικήσεις ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Translation:
...so that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge. (Ps 50:4)
"So that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge." (R 3:4)

Nice. I was working on a response and you beat me to it. Sorry for the redundancy.

 

[MarcR]

Paul quotes Septuagint, MSS text is (again) wrong.

Psalm 50:4
...ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου, καὶ νικήσῃς ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Rom 3:4
Ὅπως ἂν δικαιωθῇς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σου καὶ νικήσεις ἐν τῷ κρίνεσθαί σε.

Translation:
...so that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge. (Ps 50:4)
"So that you may be justified in your words and victorious when you judge." (R 3:4)

Thank you. I didn't think to look at the LXX. The Hebrew uses the qal [active voice] 'when you judge'

The Greek uses κρίνεσθαί Passive Infinitive 'when you are judged'.

But it is indeed correctly quoted.

 

[maxwel]

Many points have been established, It is not an easy read. If you are having issues understanding the points of the commentary while looking at the text; then please take the time to read the citations provided at the end.

It is generally considered the responsibility of the writer to make himself understood.

The responsibility of communication falls to the writer, not the reader.

If I write something which people cannot follow, I always assume it's my responsibility to make it more clear.



Something to consider.

 

[trofimus]

So you hold to the LXX more than the MSS? What of the Aramaic?

Yes, MSS has nothing to do with Christian line of Scriptures.

Sadly, it began to be used for Bible translations during reformation and continues till today.

 

[lightbearer]

Exclamation point? Well then maybe it is written somewhere else? Maybe in a writing we do not have any more. Or one that is not used often. Such as the Septuagint?

Here is the clause from 51:4 in the LXX
LXX “και νικήσης εν τω κρίνεσθαί σε”

Here it is in Romans 3:4 και νικήσης εν τω κρίνεσθαί σε

As you can see it is the same. Basically what you are looking at is , "and will overcome in Your being judged".

Just to say so. I was looking at the Apostolic Bible Polyglot and Brenton's English Septuagint and noticed both translations have it Basically worded as does the MSS. I wonder why....

(ABP Ps 51:4) Against you alone I sinned, and [2 the 3 wicked thing 4 before 5 you 1 did]; that you should be justified in your words, and should overcome in your judging.

Against thee only have I sinned, and done evil before thee: that thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Psa 51:4 Brenton)

Being the word is in the Present infinitive I am assuming that Brenton is holding to the Historic present tense in regards toκρίνεσθαί (judged)

 

[lightbearer]

It is generally considered the responsibility of the writer to make himself understood.

The responsibility of communication falls to the writer, not the reader.

If I write something which people cannot follow, I always assume it's my responsibility to make it more clear.



Something to consider.

I know that but I also know that some people in general are lazy and some here had not even bothered to read the post; but gave knee jerked responses thinking it said something it did not. The fact that others elsewhere understood it was stated only so people would take the time to read it.
But then you have trolls who just jump on what they perceive as a chance to attack. "Que sera sera"

Thanks though. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[MarcR]

Hm, wait, but even though its obvious Paul quotes Septuagint (its the same except of one letter), I do not see any difference in meaning of the MSS.

I thought MSS was the proper abbreviation for Manuscripts; but you seem to use it to refer to the Mesoratic text.

Is there some confusion here? I fully acknowledge that the confusion, if any, may be my own.

 

[joefizz]

It is generally considered the responsibility of the writer to make himself understood.

The responsibility of communication falls to the writer, not the reader.

If I write something which people cannot follow, I always assume it's my responsibility to make it more clear.



Something to consider.

Well maxwel,light bearer gets by now that his first post was rather "unclear" in this thread but this person is gradually doing better with communication,so no need for more comment on clarity,just give him time to collect his thoughts and continue with discussion.

 

[Dai3234]

As far as I can tell, it seems like a theoretical question.

If I lie to further God's glory, why am I punished?

Others say it is ok to do this (as we be slanderously reported).

I think he's explaining that it is not ok to lie, and NOT be punished, even if it Gives God glory. Like a war, or stealing, or lying etc.

Maybe I'm wrong???

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, MSS has nothing to do with Christian line of Scriptures.

Sadly, it began to be used for Bible translations during reformation and continues till today.

Trophimus,
MSS is simply the plural abbreviation for manuscripts.

1. As to the LXX it is a CORRUPT Greek translation of the Old Testament with apocryphal books added.

2. As to the Masoretic Text (MT), it has been the standard OT text since the invention of printing. Only more recently corrupted versions of the MT have been produced, since the textual critics always seen to prefer the corrupt over the pure.

3. As to the Textus Receptus (TR), it has been the standard NT text since the invention of printing. Only more recently corrupted versions of the NT have been preferred by the textual critics, who always seem to prefer the corrupt to the pure.

4. All modern English versions of the Bible since 1881 have been based upon corrupted critical texts, so they are essentially corrupt Bibles.

5. All Reformation Bible are trustworthy, and the King James Bible has been the leading English language Bible for over 300 years.

6. As to the OP Dai3234 has provided a good response and it is quite sufficient,.