Paul's Revelation Gospel

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Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
498
149
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#61
Does this mean that there are two levels of authority in the Bible? If it's backed up by the Lord does it more authority than if Paul has just said it?
We must to keep in mind there is such a thing as "rightly dividing the word of truth."
Even this verse has so many different levels of understandings for Christian's they don't know what to believe.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
5,274
1,059
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#62
How is one to tell the difference when its Paul speaking or when its a commandment?

I think Paul always says that specifically to let people know that this is just me, not the Lord. But if nothing is said, i think we should take it as a command
Well, I was referring to the notion (that was expressed earlier in the thread) that Paul never expressed anything except commandments from the Lord, so I offered that perhaps the previous poster (in suggesting otherwise) MAY have been thinking of something like in 1Cor7 :

"7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."


… and even here, I'm not suggesting that this was "mere opinion" of Paul's.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,454
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#63
Paul was a Disciple of Gamaliel who was the grandson of Hillel. Hillel was and still is considered to be one of the greatest of Jewish
sages in Judaism. In the time of Jesus it was common for people to become Disciples of various Rabbis who taught the Torah in accordance with various Jewish Scholars.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#64
The only witness we have of Paul is from Paul. He was not prophesied nor is he counted among the TTwelve

The Twelve received all knowledge by meas of the Holy Spirit on the day we now call Pentacost. This fufilled Christ's words that they would be tught all later.

What I have posted here is true. Having said this, I learn from Paul all of the time, but I do not need to read Paul since the gospel of Jesus Chris is given by Jesus through HIs Twelve, andnothing will ever change of His gospel. Ask Paul, he teaches there is on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I do not, nor will I ever place any aposte before Jesus Christ when it comes to learn truth for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. It is written we shall all learn from God and I beliee because of the Presence of the hoy sPIRIT IN ALL WHO BELIEVE WE DO FULFILL THIS PROPHECY.

right

so we will discredit the fact that Paul had a personal encounter on the road to Damascus because after all, he might have made it up

and I guess we will also simply discredit the other TWO times he had a personal encounter with the risen Christ

17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. Acts 22

now did you note the part where Jesus says to Paul 'Hurry up and get out of Jerusalem because these people will NOT accept your testimony?

apparently, those words ring true to this very day

tell us do please, which of the Apostles with whom Jesus physically walked the earth were prophesied?

the 12 received all knowledge on the day of Pentecost? which version of scripture do you get this understanding from because I have never and do not expect to ever, hear anyone say that apart from your statement

what they received was the infilling of the Holy Spirit

what you say regarding that, is nonsense because EVERY believer filled with the Holy Spirit would have all knowledge and that would make any teacher obsolete and in fact, would make the Holy Spirit Himself obsolete

I said this to you some days back

I have to say here, that whether or not those who tend to lean towards the law, even though they refuse to say they do, reveal their tendencies when it comes to anything written by the Apostle Paul
my post 9


and then I said never mind because its just a merry go round

well, it's still basically a never mind, because I am quite familiar with how you present something then try to back peddle it and mess with it, and with respect because of your age and the age related problems you have said you have in other threads, I maintain that you do not respect what Paul wrote and if you did, you would not practice OT law keeping...and I know you say you do not, but again, respectfully, you most certainly do

you just spice it up to make it sound like you do not, but you have just really revealed how you think about Paul

even though he is the largest contributor to the NT, you do not have respect for his letters and do not give his writing the same weight as you do the rest of the NT

I do not need to read Paul since the gospel of Jesus Chris is given by Jesus through HIs Twelve, andnothing will ever change of His gospel.
finally what you really believe in a manner clear enough for anyone to see what others have said and you have denied
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#65
Paull gave his opinion on marriage, and on how women should cover their heads because the man is her head and Jesus is his head. None of this is Godpel but traqdition.

He talks of how if a person takes a spouse who does not believe it is alright but preferbl not to. These are all new rules laid down by his thinking, though he does not demand it.

Yes, Paul does give a lot of opinion not based on the freedom of the liberty in Christ but on the traditions, harmless as they may have been of men.

I do not think it harmless to separte people so easily but perhaps I do not fully understand this mentor of so any.
.
I see no reson for more discussion here. You know what I say is correct providing you have red teh epistles.

As for chapter and verse, these too are introduced into scripture by men.

so here you pay attention to Paul and we all can read and understand it is his opinion BECAUSE HE SAYS SO

but the rest is from the Lord and Paul says it is from the Lord yet YOUR opinion is otherwise

FYI ... there are not that many places where in Paul says it is his opinion and you have abused when he does say it

I would like to thank you for your (finally) openness regarding what you really believe

Yes, Paul does give a lot of opinion not based on the freedom of the liberty in Christ but on the traditions, harmless as they may have been of men.
the exact OPPOSITE is true. Paul gets pretty angry with people who want to make Gentile believers follow Jewish laws...I would say read Galatians, but of course you give no weight to Paul

you are simply another Sabbatarian who has finally taken the mask off
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#66
I see now that you belong to Paul. I belong to Jesus, Yeshua, and He does not teach such things, petty and diverting laws. As you see here it is also divisive,.

no one has sad any such thing Jaume

that is a false accusation and typical of what Sabbatarians, who have no use for the Apostle Paul do

you say you follow Jesus, but so did Paul, as do ALL who are believers in our Lord Jesus Christ
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,046
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#67
If your trust in all Paul writes is sound, women today in Western cultures should have their heads shaved or cov er their heads………..This is a very superficial maner of viewing the souls of all. There is nothing indicative of this particular law,yes law, from Paul.

Perhaps it is not a law, simply a suggestion? Who knows? Oh, right all of his disciples do.

Good night and God bless all from over here..
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#68
If your trust in all Paul writes is sound, women today in Western cultures should have their heads shaved or cov er their heads………..This is a very superficial maner of viewing the souls of all. There is nothing indicative of this particular law,yes law, from Paul.

Perhaps it is not a law, simply a suggestion? Who knows? Oh, right all of his disciples do.

oh please

there is no salvation in those things...although you might believe differently

do you bind a phylactery on your head when you go out?

maybe learn the difference between customs and the gospel

do you think if a man has hair to his shoulders he becomes unsaved?

listen to yourself...you are all about outward appearance and outward judging

you have defined yourself as a follower of Christ and try to make those who disagree with your Sabbatarian witness as non-believers because you falsely say we follow Paul

the actual truth is that you follow only HALF the gospel and have denied that you do that and have tried to get away from being identified with Sabbatarians, yet those are the people who deny the inspired writing of Paul
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,502
2,576
113
#69
the exact OPPOSITE is true. Paul gets pretty angry with people who want to make Gentile believers follow Jewish laws...I would say read Galatians, but of course you give no weight to Paul

you are simply another Sabbatarian who has finally taken the mask off
Yes. Have you noticed how this new, foreign, trendy but unbiblical hebrew roots movement has recently become EXTREMELY popular. It has become popular for gentiles to speak in hebrew phrases and use hebrew names. These groups often battle amongst themselves on if its Yeshua or Yahushua or Yahshua or whatever, the irony of it all is that the NT is written in greek lol.

LETS NOT LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY! Also the "torah" talk has increased. Its almost as if we are returning to judaism, but we just add Jesus in there. Common feature in the grou you called "sabbatarians" is that they attack or dismiss Paul, why? Because Paul refutes their entire religion.

A good rule to go by is this: If you come across a doctrine that nobody has taught, until very recently, you know most likely its a false doctrine.
Read the book of Galatians, as seasrekeyed said. (Obviously this wont help if you think Paul is just giving out petty regulations and giving his opinion).

ONce you start denying books of the NT I am worried it could be a slippery slope, leading to more and more false doctrine.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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#70
We must to keep in mind there is such a thing as "rightly dividing the word of truth."
Even this verse has so many different levels of understandings for Christian's they don't know what to believe.
I do not think if there was no rightly dividing then why would He require we do in order to receive His approval? We might not all have the same understanding but do have the commandment to perform His will that does work in us to both will and perform that which he does appoint to us. How else could we seek after the approval of him not seen?
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#71
Yes. Have you noticed how this new, foreign, trendy but unbiblical hebrew roots movement has recently become EXTREMELY popular. It has become popular for gentiles to speak in hebrew phrases and use hebrew names. These groups often battle amongst themselves on if its Yeshua or Yahushua or Yahshua or whatever, the irony of it all is that the NT is written in greek lol.

LETS NOT LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY! Also the "torah" talk has increased. Its almost as if we are returning to judaism, but we just add Jesus in there. Common feature in the grou you called "sabbatarians" is that they attack or dismiss Paul, why? Because Paul refutes their entire religion.

A good rule to go by is this: If you come across a doctrine that nobody has taught, until very recently, you know most likely its a false doctrine.
Read the book of Galatians, as seasrekeyed said. (Obviously this wont help if you think Paul is just giving out petty regulations and giving his opinion).

ONce you start denying books of the NT I am worried it could be a slippery slope, leading to more and more false doctrine.

well it's been around a while, but it is trendy as you say

this forum has seen some pretty serious debates about this topic going back a few years...I've been around a couple of years myself

the net is full of this stuff in different flavors...apparently they do not all go to the extreme of ignoring Paul or saying he is just full of his own opinions

you can't deny the books of the NT and say 'Jesus only' because Paul writes about Jesus to the absolute chagrin of all these Sabbatarians and the book of Romans? THE masterpiece on Christian doctrine? we'll ignore that also?

notice how things myself and others point out are just ignored while an attempt at an entire other subject is offered

the tactics are always the same...as I said, veteran of a good number of these kinds of threads and lately a good half dozen or so

and 100% right about Paul..he just disses their entire approach so...he's just not even prophesied about (never mind none of the other are either :rolleyes:)
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#72
and having said the above, I should add that every Christian should absolutely study their OT

it is the foundation for the new and gives such wonderful insight and understanding into our salvation
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,046
4,455
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#73
It appears you are responding to someone else's post(s). By the way, if I recall, the phylactery would be worn on the chest.

Please pay attention to what folsk post before responding. I do not teach law as salvation, but I will never teach agains Jesus Christ when He warns all never to teach against the law…..If you understood this you would truly be free of the curse of the law, but until you understand, you are a law to yourself and other and under that curse you may be also.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,046
4,455
113
#74
Yes. Have you noticed how this new, foreign, trendy but unbiblical hebrew roots movement has recently become EXTREMELY popular. It has become popular for gentiles to speak in hebrew phrases and use hebrew names. These groups often battle amongst themselves on if its Yeshua or Yahushua or Yahshua or whatever, the irony of it all is that the NT is written in greek lol.

LETS NOT LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY! Also the "torah" talk has increased. Its almost as if we are returning to judaism, but we just add Jesus in there. Common feature in the grou you called "sabbatarians" is that they attack or dismiss Paul, why? Because Paul refutes their entire religion.

A good rule to go by is this: If you come across a doctrine that nobody has taught, until very recently, you know most likely its a false doctrine.
Read the book of Galatians, as seasrekeyed said. (Obviously this wont help if you think Paul is just giving out petty regulations and giving his opinion).

ONce you start denying books of the NT I am worried it could be a slippery slope, leading to more and more false doctrine.

You are not listening. I have never said Paul is not to be studied. I read his writings daily.

I have posted time and again I belong to no denomination, not under the umbrell of Judaism, not under the umbrella of Christian.

As for trendy words and names, almost all tradition names in most western languages are Hebrew based, Elizabeth, Marion, John, Mike, Ruth, and names derived from these….

As for Yeshua, I have always maintained it may be pronounced according to the accent learned,.

I realizer you folks know much, but as for how to pronounce Yeshua when transliterated to English, hear teh grammar rule, there is no correct pronunciation of a proper noun, only primary, secondary, tertiary etc pptonumciation . If I say New Yahk in stead of New York, it is correct unless I misspell in wrining.

Furthermore, because of Paul's writings I have never held it agains any who believe the tradition laid down by man over the sabbath being on Sunday and not on the Seventh day.

I have declared many times any who hold one day over another as holy and do it with a cgood concious in the sight of God is jsut peachyi with me, while you and others label people with names like Sabbatarians, doing so in total ingnorance of what it means to thee peopl who continue to beieve God's declaration and sanctification of the Seventh day.

I learned this from Paul and Jesus........now if you have read this, and understand it, you will stop thinking all who believe God are what you have created in your mind as regarding those who yet believe God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,187
9,921
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#75
Yes. Have you noticed how this new, foreign, trendy but unbiblical hebrew roots movement has recently become EXTREMELY popular. It has become popular for gentiles to speak in hebrew phrases and use hebrew names.
I recently came across this article below on the growing dangers of the Hebrew roots movement. The article points out how the past few decades have witnessed a growing influence of this movement among conservative Christians. It is not unusual to see some HRM proponents give themselves Hebrew names, identify as Torah observant, write “God” as “G-d,” eat only kosher foods, claim that the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew (or at least several books were), condemn numerous Christian traditions as pagan, dismiss teachings from Paul’s epistles etc.. - https://answersingenesis.org/presuppositions/dangers-hebrew-roots-movement/
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#76
It appears you are responding to someone else's post(s). By the way, if I recall, the phylactery would be worn on the chest.

Please pay attention to what folsk post before responding. I do not teach law as salvation, but I will never teach agains Jesus Christ when He warns all never to teach against the law…..If you understood this you would truly be free of the curse of the law, but until you understand, you are a law to yourself and other and under that curse you may be also.
wrong on both counts

Phylactery, Hebrew Tefillin, also spelled Tephillin, or Tfillin, in Jewish religious practice, one of two small, black leather, cube-shaped cases containing Torah texts written on parchment, which, in accordance with Deuteronomy 6:8 (and similar statements in Deuteronomy 11:18 and Exodus 13:9, 16), are to be worn by male Jews of 13 years and older as reminders of God and of the obligation to keep the Law during daily life. The name phylactery is derived from the Greek phylakterion, meaning amulet.

According to rabbinic regulations, one of the phylacteries is worn on the left arm facing the heart and the other on the forehead at the morning service (except on the Sabbath and festivals) and at the afternoon service on the Ninth of Av.

The tefillin are worn in a prescribed manner so as to represent the letters shin, daleth, and yod, which taken together form the divine name Shaddai. The hand phylactery (tefillin shel yad) has one compartment with the texts written on a single parchment; the head phylactery (tefillin shel rosh) has four compartments, each with one text. The extracts are Exodus 13:1–10, 11–16; Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13–21. Reform Jews interpret the biblical commandment in a figurative sense and, hence, do not wear phylacteries. Because of rabbinic indecision about the exact sequence of the four scriptural passages, very pious Jews may have two pairs of phylacteries.

source

now how did I know that and how do you consistently get things wrong? :unsure:
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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#77
="Noblemen, post: 3730100, member: 266179"]When Paul had his revelation of the indwelling Christ, he went into the Arabian desert. Paul was "more zealous than you all" in his religion. I believe after Paul's revelation, he spent some time in the desert getting the message of God so fixed in him that when he came out of the desert he would know what he was talking about.

More importantly is the fact he was God was getting that deep root of religion out of Paul.
Paul knew nothing but the law, and would kill to protect it.
Even though God had revealed Christ in Paul and was giving to him the gospel of Grace, he needed things fixed in him by the HolySpirit. We all have that deep root of religion that God deals with.
One thing that I have come to understand about "religion" or religious doctrines in general is how men get a deception in their mind, and then build their believe subject to this deception.

It brings the phrase "A Little leaven leavens the whole lump" to a whole new understanding. If a person looks at the very first example of deception we see how this is the tactic of the serpent.

Gen. 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject the instruction) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

First satan convinced her that God's Word can not be trusted and that even though He said basically "the wages of sin is death", that this wasn't true for Eve.

Then He plants the deception that God's instructions are not in her best interest, that they are created to keep her blind and burdened, and that she can only "see" if she rejects God's Word and trusts on her own vision.

This is, of course, not true. Satan is the father of lies. But it did convince Eve just the same. And until she realizes she believes a lie, and "renews her mind" in this regard, every thing she believes will be corrupted by these lies. Therefore, "A little leaven leavens the "Whole" lump.

I say this because of your comment about Paul's religion. "Paul knew nothing but the law, and would kill to protect it.".

This implies that Paul was following God's Laws. This belief that the Pharisees were following God's Laws and that is why they didn't know the Christ when He came is not true. It is a deception that is deeply ingrained in Mainstream religions today. God's Word teaches just the opposite

So I just want to point out that yes, Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees. The model Pharisee, blameless in the Laws of their religion. But the Pharisees did not follow God's Laws, they did not believe "All that was written in the Law and Prophets" as did Paul after his conversion. They created heavy religious burdens, not from God, and placed them on the backs of the people. The Law and Prophets prophesied of their corruption and their lawlessness and the Christ confirmed what the Prophets said about them.

This was Paul before his conversion.

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as is widely taught)

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Jer. 5:
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people (Paul before conversion) love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

This was Paul after his conversion.

Acts 24:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they ( Pharisees) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So I agree with you about how deeply ingrained the Pharisees religion was in Paul's mind, and how difficult it is to undo deeply held deceptions, and Paul's desire, after the truth about his religion had been shown to him, to serve the Living God and not the devil as he had been tricked into serving his whole life.

But I don't believe in the widely taught religious doctrine that the Pharisees didn't know the Christ because they were trying to follow God's Laws, because the Bible teaches against this doctrine, just as the Law and Prophets exposed the doctrines of the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time. Zechariahs knew the Christ when he came, Abraham knew the Christ when He came, Simeon, Anna, the Wise men, they all knew the Christ when He came, but Paul and the Pharisees did not.

So if a person has been convinced into believing something that is not true according to the scriptures, as was Saul before Paul, then their entire religion has been compromised. And everything they believe is influenced by this deception. I think this is why the Christ said to live by "Every Word" of God and not just parts of the Word as Paul and the Pharisees did.

Great topic though, and isn't this forum a place for believers to weed this "leaven" out of our minds?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,046
4,455
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#78
wrong on both counts

Phylactery, Hebrew Tefillin, also spelled Tephillin, or Tfillin, in Jewish religious practice, one of two small, black leather, cube-shaped cases containing Torah texts written on parchment, which, in accordance with Deuteronomy 6:8 (and similar statements in Deuteronomy 11:18 and Exodus 13:9, 16), are to be worn by male Jews of 13 years and older as reminders of God and of the obligation to keep the Law during daily life. The name phylactery is derived from the Greek phylakterion, meaning amulet.

According to rabbinic regulations, one of the phylacteries is worn on the left arm facing the heart and the other on the forehead at the morning service (except on the Sabbath and festivals) and at the afternoon service on the Ninth of Av.

The tefillin are worn in a prescribed manner so as to represent the letters shin, daleth, and yod, which taken together form the divine name Shaddai. The hand phylactery (tefillin shel yad) has one compartment with the texts written on a single parchment; the head phylactery (tefillin shel rosh) has four compartments, each with one text. The extracts are Exodus 13:1–10, 11–16; Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13–21. Reform Jews interpret the biblical commandment in a figurative sense and, hence, do not wear phylacteries. Because of rabbinic indecision about the exact sequence of the four scriptural passages, very pious Jews may have two pairs of phylacteries.

source

now how did I know that and how do you consistently get things wrong? :unsure:
It sounds as though you are Hebrew Roots.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#79
It sounds as though you are Hebrew Roots.

you were wrong about where the phylactery's were worn and you make the above comment

sore looser...I don't view this as right or wrong but obviously you do

you loose both ways. you refuse to admit when you are wrong ... source material is included so either you did not read to the end, or you prefer to falsify what others state

you could have learned something

you put judge not that you be not judged as a quote and yet you have judged everyone who disagrees with your Sabattarian views by saying they follow Paul

you sound quite petulant

you do not address what is actually in a post and have not for several pages now...so hopefully those who do not know about Sabbath day worshipers who keep only partial OT law, will become aware of the stumbling block that group creates and the manmade false doctrines they keep
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,046
4,455
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#80
Sorry, watching a movie.

Listen, the original phylacteries were worn around the neck. Since that time zealous Pharisee types have evolved the forehead and the wrist adodrnments as obeying having the law always before them....going to the etreme of wearing a box on the forehead and on the wrist…...This is not like when they wore them on the chest, making them broad for everyone to see just how holy they were.

Keep it up.