Pelagius' teachings are the Kool-Aid Supporting Free-Willer Theology

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#81
God knew Nineveh would repent. What makes you think he didn't?

He sent Jonah there knowing full well that they would repent. God ordains both means and the end.

No, God has not chosen to limit his knowledge. For one, he would have to know the events first before deciding which ones to remember, and then he would have to forget them.

I don't worship your Alzheimer-god.

Again, this is open theism and process theology. It seeks to reduce God to the level of a man, because those who hold this theology are idolaters. Clark Pinnock and Jesse Morrell are two noteable open theists. Jesse, in particular, has been trying to spread his goofy Pelagianism/Finneyism and open theism for a long time.
Do you take the Bible literally? What was Jonah’s message from God? “Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Was Nineveh overthrown in forty days? Did God lie or simply change His mind based upon Nineveh’s response to His word?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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#82

Locoponydirtman

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#83
Do you take the Bible literally? What was Jonah’s message from God? “Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Was Nineveh overthrown in forty days? Did God lie or simply change His mind based upon Nineveh’s response to His word?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
So you suppose God is obligated to disclose to Jonah or anyone else his whole plan. He told Jonah to go preach this message, and issue a warning.
Clearly God had it in his plan that they would repent.
Yet Jonah already knew God's plan because he knew God
"But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord , was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."
Jonah 4:1‭-‬2 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jon.4.1-2.NASB
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#84
So you suppose God is obligated to disclose to Jonah or anyone else his whole plan. He told Jonah to go preach this message, and issue a warning.
Clearly God had it in his plan that they would repent.
Yet Jonah already knew God's plan because he knew God
"But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord , was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity."
Jonah 4:1‭-‬2 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jon.4.1-2.NASB
Jonah knew that God is merciful and there was a chance that Nineveh might actually believe the message of destruction and repent and in turn, God would repent and not destroy them.

Did God have the intention of His message to overthrow Nineveh in forty days?
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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#85
Jonah knew that God is merciful and there was a chance that Nineveh might actually believe the message of destruction and repent and in turn, God would repent and not destroy them.

Did God have the intention of His message to overthrow Nineveh in forty days?
God intended exactly what happened, and he explains in the end to Jonah.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#86
God intended exactly what happened, and he explains in the end to Jonah.
God intended to destroy Nineveh in forty days as He said. God did not lie, He simply changed His mind. It’s all throughout Scripture.
 

Locoponydirtman

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#87
God intended to destroy Nineveh in forty days as He said. God did not lie, He simply changed His mind. It’s all throughout Scripture.
So you suppose that God is myopic?
It's kind of blasphemous.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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#89
Absolutely not, I believe God is all knowing. If it’s knowledge to be known, then God knows it.

Has God chosen not to remember your sins?
good point. this and nineveh example prove God can choose to do so
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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#90
Absolutely not, I believe God is all knowing. If it’s knowledge to be known, then God knows it.

Has God chosen not to remember your sins?
He chooses.
Absolutely not, I believe God is all knowing. If it’s knowledge to be known, then God knows it.

Has God chosen not to remember your sins?
Knowing how humans will behave upon warning is simple enough.
You ever warn your children knowing that the issued warning will elicit the proper response? Yes I do, and God is way smarter than me.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#91
He chooses.

Knowing how humans will behave upon warning is simple enough.
You ever warn your children knowing that the issued warning will elicit the proper response? Yes I do, and God is way smarter than me.
Yes, but God would not and cannot lie in order to do so.
 

Locoponydirtman

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#92
Yes, but God would not and cannot lie in order to do so.
It's not a lie to issue a warning inorder to elicit a response. I don't mean that the warning is not genuine, the authenticity of the warning is what elicits the response.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#93
It's not a lie to issue a warning inorder to elicit a response. I don't mean that the warning is not genuine, the authenticity of the warning is what elicits the response.
God said, “yet forty days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God either lied, or He simply changed His mind based on their response to His word of destruction. There were no ifs in God’s statement.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#94
In verse 2 Jonas was told to preach the gospel . It does not give us all the words he preached but the ones that were sufficient to work of a faith that comes from hearing God creating a new heart or desire to do His will. Not hearing the resistance of Jonas who tried to turn God. .

As in all cases we are saved by the hearing of the faith of God, as Christ labor of love working in us. Seeing he is of one mind and always does what so ever His soul pleases we can be comforted with the thoughts that without Him we can do nothing. He must work in us to both will ad perform His good pleasure. We should believe with murmuring. (Philipian 2:12-13)

Its not as if we could make our own hearts soft .

He turned Jonas to repent in the same with the Ninevites or any man by the hearing of His faith..


But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and "who can turn him"? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:.Job 23:10-16
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#95
In verse 2 Jonas was told to preach the gospel . It does not give us all the words he preached but the ones that were sufficient to work of a faith that comes from hearing God creating a new heart or desire to do His will. Not hearing the resistance of Jonas who tried to turn God. .

As in all cases we are saved by the hearing of the faith of God, as Christ labor of love working in us. Seeing he is of one mind and always does what so ever His soul pleases we can be comforted with the thoughts that without Him we can do nothing. He must work in us to both will ad perform His good pleasure. We should believe with murmuring. (Philipian 2:12-13)

Its not as if we could make our own hearts soft .

He turned Jonas to repent in the same with the Ninevites or any man by the hearing of His faith..


But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and "who can turn him"? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:.Job 23:10-16
Jonah was told to preach the gospel? Can you post that verse please? Here’s what my Bible says,

3 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Look at the beginning:

1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,

2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

The message was not a good news message, but the message was against Nineveh. Why Nineveh? All the pagan nations of the world were evil, but Nineveh was Israel’s enemy and wanted to destroy them. God, in protecting His people and the promised seed, would destroy them first. They ended up repenting of their violence so God repented and did not destroy them as He said He would do.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#96
Jonah was told to preach the gospel? Can you post that verse please? Here’s what my Bible says,

3 And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Look at the beginning:

1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,

2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

The message was not a good news message, but the message was against Nineveh. Why Nineveh? All the pagan nations of the world were evil, but Nineveh was Israel’s enemy and wanted to destroy them. God, in protecting His people and the promised seed, would destroy them first. They ended up repenting of their violence so God repented and did not destroy them as He said He would do.
The gospel contains both sides of the message. The cry of despair and the cry for help.

Do not eat or you will surely die. . the letter of the law against us and believe upon the lord the law of faith the good news saving us. Causing them to repent. God does the work of repenting.... the thousands heard the message preached as Pentecost.

Jonas was still upset that he spared the Ninevites. .
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
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#97
Do you take the Bible literally? What was Jonah’s message from God? “Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” Was Nineveh overthrown in forty days? Did God lie or simply change His mind based upon Nineveh’s response to His word?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Do you think the Bible includes every word of the prophecy that Jonah spoke to them? And, do you think God knew what the outcome would be?

If you are an open theist or a person that believes in "process theology", you believe that God DOESN'T know the future in detail, and DOESN'T know the future.

Therefore, you would think that God really does learn things, and does not know the future in detail. You would believe in a different god than me (Is 46:9-10).

Open theists have invaded the ranks of free-willers because, ultimately, the free-willer theology, when applied consistently, yields open theism.

So, here is my response:

1. God sent Jonah to Nineveh to preach repentance to them, in essence.
2. They repented.
3. God knew all along that they would repent, because he is the one who grants repentance (which free-willers deny).
4. He inspired this to be included in the canon as a type of the repentance which would come to Gentiles in the future.
5. Jonah himself was typological of Jesus, therefore this type is full of divine sovereignty.

For those who want to see that God grants repentance (therefore he knew they would repent because he caused it):

God gives faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25).

And, as I quoted before:


Jonah 2:9 9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you;
what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord!”
(ESV)

Even within the book of Jonah, there is a clear statement that salvation is of the Lord!

Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16). Salvation is God’s work.

How was Jonah typological of Jesus? He went to sleep in the boat, and was awakened by men who were afraid of destruction. He went to a hostile people to preach repentance to them, as Jesus did when he became a man and preached among mankind. He was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, and was as good as dead, just like Jesus was. There are other shadows and types; you can google them...just look up Jonah as a type of Christ.

In the open-theist and free-willer mindset, I am pretty sure they simply deny typology like this, because they realize it would imply that God orchestrates events and that is against their theology.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#98
In the open-theist and free-willer mindset, I am pretty sure they simply deny typology like this, because they realize it would imply that God orchestrates events and that is against their theology.
More insults and false accusations from you. Looks like that is the only thing that keeps you going. Why not give up your false Reformed Theology and stick with Bible truth? When you stand before God and give account, what He will ask you is whether you chose the doctrines of men over the truth of God.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#99
Do you think the Bible includes every word of the prophecy that Jonah spoke to them? And, do you think God knew what the outcome would be?
Yes, that is what the Bible says. You are adding to Scripture which is forbidden. Here is the mind of God:

Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God pronounced destruction against Nineveh. They turned from their evil and in turn, God repented of the evil He said He would do unto them and He did it not.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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Yes, that is what the Bible says. You are adding to Scripture which is forbidden. Here is the mind of God:

Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God pronounced destruction against Nineveh. They turned from their evil and in turn, God repented of the evil He said He would do unto them and He did it not.
Realize, folks, that John is an open theist and this set of Scriptures is one that they used to claim God doesn't know the future.

I already replied to him showing that God grants repentance, so, yes, he did know that Nineveh would repent because he was going to grant them the heart of flesh that they needed to repent.

This is where consistent free-willer theology falls apart. Ultimately they translate God into an anthropomorphic, man-like being who doesn't really know the future, nor does he coordinate it.

I really suggest watching out for Jesse Morrell and some of his posse, as well as all kinds of Pelagians that teach this stuff online. Clark Pinnock teaches it in academic circles but the worst are guys like Morrell who take his general theology and popularize it.