Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread

[Angela53510]

Nah. It's a WoF problem.

All WoFers are Pentecostal/Charismatic.
All Pentecostal/Charismatic are not WoFers.

I agree with this! Gordon Fee is a Greek scholar who is Pentecostal, and has fine excellent work exposing the Word Faith heresy for the sham it is!

I was Pentecostal the first 15 years after I was saved. I got tired of the excesses, and left. Although in retrospect, it was not the Pentecostal meetings, as much the healing, revival meetings, which were dominated by WoF people looking for "more!" As if God himself was not enough, these believers constantly needed signs and wonders to affirm their faith.

In retrospect, I was not being fed in Pentecostal churches! The pastors simply were not as well trained in the Word, and hermeneutics. Plus, God opened up the opportunity for me to go to seminary, where I really was able to examine my beliefs in light of the Word, in non-charismatic churches.

I'm pretty sure my supposed speaking in tongues was just babbling, coming out of over emotionalism, and wanting to be like everyone else. I certainly don't practice it anymore. Although, certainly there are other gifts that the Holy Spirit gives, like in Romans 12!

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:3-8

I never understood why Pentecostals don't use this gift list, instead of 1 Corinthians 12! It might save a lot of argument over the word "glossa" in Greek, which means "languages, as much as the KJV and versions which follow the KJV want it to be "tongues!" (OK, tongues could be a language to speak to God, I just read a 20 page tome on 1 Cor. 12:10, not going to argue about whether it died out or not! Just that it died out in my life!)

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

actually baptism of holy spirit is a must but speaking in tongues is not,in fact paul in the bible said he preferred to speak in a "known" tongue to speak to others because it was more fruitful because there was no confusion in that way when conversing especially in church,also advising that if two or more people spoke in tongues or prophesied that there had to be an interpreter,for particularly with tongues if no interpeter translated what was being said then people coming into the church wouldn't understand and think the people speaking in tongues to be mad,thereby being a problem because it would cause people coming into the church who were new to not stay out of such confusion.

Now that you are saved, you should ask the Lord to baptize you with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).

You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.

To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the Holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the Lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).

 

[Waggles]

I am from the Central Europe, between Germany and Austria. I am not looking for any pentecostal church because I do not accept any of its specific teachings.

Sorry, my apologies... I should have looked at your personal information page.

Czech Republic
Trutnov
Pr Oldrich Treml
Phone: +420-499 898 216
Meetings: Volanovska 409, 3pm & 6pm (Wednesdays 6:30pm)
European contact: Pastor Peter Visser - Netherlands

 

[Speak2Me]

Some have said these gifts of the Spirit were to "kickstart" the church, and afterwards wasn't needed after the completion of the canon. The Corinthian church was already well established when Paul taught them about the spiritual gifts.
I'm only supposing some who believe this believe that those gifts ended with the death of John, 70 years later. But history of the early church say differently.

https://continuationism.com/2010/05/16/the-charismata-in-church-history/

Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165)

‘Therefore, just as God did not inflict His anger on account of those seven thousand men, even so He has now neither yet inflicted judgment, nor does inflict it, knowing that daily some [of you] are becoming disciples in the name of Christ, and quitting the path of error; who are also receiving gifts, each as he is worthy, illumined through the name of this Christ. For one receives the spirit of understanding, another of counsel, another of strength, another of healing, another of foreknowledge, another of teaching, and another of the fear of God.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)
​

‘For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven.’ (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39)
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Irenaeus (approx. AD 120-202)

‘Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]. (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4)
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‘Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, she has been accustomed to work miracles for the advantage of mankind, and not to lead them into error.’ (Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 5)
​

‘In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit…’ (Against Heresies, Book 5, ch.6, 1)
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Novatian (approx. AD 210-280)

‘…they [the first disciples] were henceforth armed and strengthened by the same Spirit, having in themselves the gifts which this same Spirit distributes, and appropriates to the Church, the spouse of Christ, as her ornaments. This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord’s Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed.’ (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, ch.29)
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Gregory Neocaesarea (AD 213-270)
Consider these words from church historian, Justo Gonzalez, as he chronicles some of the things that took place in the life of Gregory Neocaesarea.

‘The most famous of these workers of miracles was Gregory Thaumaturgus – a name that means “wonderworker.” He was from the region of Pontus, and had been converted through the learned witness of Origen. But upon returning to Pontus and becoming bishop of Neocaesarea, his great evangelistic success was due, not to his theological arguments, but to the miracles that he was said to perform. These were mostly miracles of healing, but we are also told that he could control the course of a river in flood, and that the apostles and the Virgin appeared to him and guided his work.’ (Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Volume 1: The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation, p99)
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In his book, Evangelism in the Early Church, Michael Green quotes an early church source, The Apostolic Constitutions, making note of the charismata gifts:

‘A passage in the Apostolic Constitutions crystallizes the point well: ‘These gifts were first bestowed upon us, the apostles, when we were about to preach the gospel to every creature, and afterwards were necessarily provided to those who had come to faith through our agency, not for the advantage of those who perform them, but for the conviction of the unbelievers, that those whom the word did not persuade the power of signs might put to shame.’ The charismatagiven in the apostolic age [first century] had not been revoked: they continued in the Church in the third century.’ (Green, Evangelism in the Early Church, p270)
​

Finally, it would be interesting to read some of Augustine’s words near the end of his life. Though many cessationists might look to quote him as a pointer towards a more cessationist view in the early church, as was shown in the beginning of this article, what we don’t realise is that Augustine actually had a change of theology near the end of his life.
Michael Green specifically points to his own study of the early church fathers as a reason why he shifted away from a more hard cessationist view, and he quotes these words of Augustine in his own reflections.

‘I am encouraged, in my recantation [from his hard cessationist thoughts in his earlier edition of this book], to be in the good company of Augustine who, in his earlier writings, believed that the charismatic gifts had died out in the Church and were no longer needed. But by the time he wrote The City of God, however, he had realized his scepticism was unwarranted. In Book 22 he tells how he changed his mind “once I realized how many miracles were occurring in our day…It is only two years ago that the keeping of records was begun here in Hippo, and already, at this writing, we have nearly seventy attested miracles.”‘ (Green, Evangelism in the Early Church, p271)
​

 

[Speak2Me]

As far as some believe the gifts are to be no more, there's nothing in the Bible that points or hints to it. Some claim 1Cor 13:8-10 says it, but they're taking the verses out of context in saying so, for Paul is speaking about seeing Jesus face to face when we live forever with him. (V12)

 

[Speak2Me]

I'm distancing myself from the charismatic movement because it seems like it's mostly emotional rhetoric with no real substance. I've even seen it in my own church. Sometimes we have had guest speakers and I'm sitting in my seat thinking " you've been up there yelling for the past 45 minutes but you haven't actually said anything yet"
I don't mean any disrespect to my pastor but sometimes I wonder why he lets some of them get up there and preach

I agree with most of what you say here, but I need to ask you, which denominations today have real substance?
It looks to me like all the churches are slowly losing their real substance.
Obviously I haven't been to all these churches, but I have talked to numerous people through the years, and most say their churches are spiritually declining.

 

[Speak2Me]

Prophesy and prediction are NOT equivalent but prophesy can contain prediction at times.

Prophesy is forth-telling not necessarily foretelling God's will for His people. When a pastor prayerfully seeks God's message to his congregation; the resulting sermon is likely to be prophesy in this sense.

I rarely find people that see prophecy today the way you put it. "Speaking for God" is the basic rule of thumb for a prophet.
If the church could only see spreading the Great Commission as speaking for God, they would see what Joel really was trying to say.

 

[Waggles]

Suffice it to say that you are proof texting without proper context. You are using the long ending of Mark which is no fully accepted to have manuscript authority.
Three gifts ended with the completion of the NT scriptures. Tongues have always been a sign from God of impending judgment. Knowledge has ended in that the knowledge that allowed fishermen to contend with Pharisees has vanished away.
Let Gal 5:22-26 be the standard by which these things are measured.
For the cause of Christ
Roger

Am I correct in assuming that a non-Pentecostal believer is attempting to judge the Pentecostal
experience and gospel?
Mark 16:15-20 is valid and true. Ivan Panin and other Bible scholars have settled this
dispute over a century ago.
Unbelief in these scriptures is the work of the spirit of anti-Christ which attacks the authority
of the Word of God and promotes a multitude of other gospels.

Your assertion that these gifts ended with the completion of the NT scriptures is simply
not true. All nine gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed individually and severally within
a true disciplined Pentecostal Church.
The sign (as opposed to gift) of being baptized (filled) with the Holy Spirit stills occurs today.
This has been going on since the 1880s arising out of the divine healing and holiness movements.
We are experiencing the outpouring of the latter rain in these very last of last days.

Paul in 1Corinthians 13 is writing about when Jesus returns in power and glory to claim
his church and the saints both dead and alive will rise up to meet him in the air.
Then our mortal limitations will end and we will fully know and be one with our Lord.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
1John 3:2-3

 

[Waggles]

Where ia a scripture proof for that? I dont know any scripture who proof that. And no letter where it is taught from Paul ore any other writer of the epistles.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;

G4592 σημεῖον sēmeion Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591;
an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.

(DRB) To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits:
to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.
1Corinthians 12:10
(BBE) And to another the power of working wonders; and to another the prophet's word;
and to another the power of testing spirits; to another different sorts of tongues;
and to another the power of making clear the sense of the tongues:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Corinthians:4
gift(s) > G5486 χάρισμα charisma From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is,
deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment,
that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.

 

[Waggles]

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Corinthians:4
gift(s) > G5486 χάρισμα charisma From G5483;

oooops that should be 1Corinthians 12:4

These reply boxes are soooo tiny.

 

[gotime]

I believe that the first work of the Holy Spirit is the fruits of the spirit. This is the only aspect that must be in every Spirit filled believer.

The gifts are given by the Spirit as they are needed to minister. But again nothing ministers more loudly than a fruit filled Christian. Nothing has more power than a Christlike Christian.

I believe that if you do not have the fruit of the Spirit and have overcome the lust of the flesh through that fruit then any supposed gifts you think you exercises are not of God but the enemy.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[gotime]

Its interesting that a lot of the supposed gifts of the spirit that are displayed today look just like the spiritualists who do not worship God.

 

[shrume]

....(OK, tongues could be a language to speak to God, I just read a 20 page tome on 1 Cor. 12:10, not going to argue about whether it died out or not! Just that it died out in my life!)

That's a shame, Angela.

 

[Speak2Me]

I believe that the first work of the Holy Spirit is the fruits of the spirit. This is the only aspect that must be in every Spirit filled believer.

The gifts are given by the Spirit as they are needed to minister. But again nothing ministers more loudly than a fruit filled Christian. Nothing has more power than a Christlike Christian.

I believe that if you do not have the fruit of the Spirit and have overcome the lust of the flesh through that fruit then any supposed gifts you think you exercises are not of God but the enemy.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I totally agree. A christian claiming gifts should have fruits of the Spirit. They are inseparable.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Its interesting that a lot of the supposed gifts of the spirit that are displayed today look just like the spiritualists who do not worship God.

When the focus of Christians is directed at tongues (the least of the gifts) and supernatural healings (which would be replaced with the prayer of faith) it should be a red flag. There area about 20 spiritual gifts listed, but none of those receive the attention of tongues and healings. And you are right in that tongues and healings can also occur among pagans and spiritualists, and those who do not worship the one true God.

 

[Angela53510]

That's a shame, Angela.

No! I am much closer to God since I walked away from the Pentecostal movement! I was obedient to God, he opened my eyes to the fact that true revelation is found in the Bible, not all this unnecessary extra biblical charismatic nonsense.

 

[Angela53510]

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;

G4592 σημεῖον sēmeion Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591;
an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.

(DRB) To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits:
to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.
1Corinthians 12:10
(BBE) And to another the power of working wonders; and to another the prophet's word;
and to another the power of testing spirits; to another different sorts of tongues;
and to another the power of making clear the sense of the tongues:

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Corinthians:4
gift(s) > G5486 χάρισμα charisma From G5483; a (divine) gratuity, that is,
deliverance (from danger or passion); (specifically) a (spiritual) endowment,
that is, (subjectively) religious qualification, or (objectively) miraculous faculty: - (free) gift.

The longer ending of Mark is spurious! So using Mark 16:17 is not going up cut it!

Why is it spurious? Because the vocabulary, the syntax and grammar, as well as the theology are completely different than the rest of Mark.

If you want, I can go into greater detail. Reading Greek really helps, as it is readily apparent in the Greek. But it is obvious in English, if you look closely!

 

[Waggles]

Its interesting that a lot of the supposed gifts of the spirit that are displayed today look just like the spiritualists who do not worship God.

Really??? And how is this so?
Nine gifts distributed in the correct behaving Pentecostal church
wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, diverse tongues,
interpretation of tongues,
The holy scriptures clearly state that these gifts are given through the Holy Spirit, so
how can these be expressions of Satanic false religion when the first apostolic church operated
these gifts for the edification and comfort of the saints?

 

[Waggles]

Its interesting that a lot of the supposed gifts of the spirit that are displayed today look just like the spiritualists who do not worship God.

Really??? And how is this so?
Nine gifts distributed in the correct behaving Pentecostal church
wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, diverse tongues,
interpretation of tongues,
The holy scriptures clearly state that these gifts are given through the Holy Spirit, so
how can these be expressions of Satanic false religion when the first apostolic church operated
these gifts for the edification and comfort of the saints?
Are you claiming that Pentecostal churches operate spiritual gifts through the power of Satan?

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever
they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of
eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
Mark 3:

 

[gotime]

Really??? And how is this so?
Nine gifts distributed in the correct behaving Pentecostal church
wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, diverse tongues,
interpretation of tongues,
The holy scriptures clearly state that these gifts are given through the Holy Spirit, so
how can these be expressions of Satanic false religion when the first apostolic church operated
these gifts for the edification and comfort of the saints?
Are you claiming that Pentecostal churches operate spiritual gifts through the power of Satan?

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:17

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever
they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of
eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
Mark 3:

I believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. I also know that there are Satan's counterfeit gifts that are close to the real but not the same. All I am saying is that a lot of what I see passed of as the gifts of the spirit these days looks identical to spiritualism. Which is just a fact.

And the way I have seen them used makes God a mockery.

I have seen the real gift of tongues and it looks nothing like what I see in this gibberish people claim is of God these days.

And it was in context with the post I sent just before that one, that those who do not manifest the fruit of the Spirit are kidding themselves if they think they can exercise the gifts of the Spirit.