Pentecostal/charismatic Discussion/light debate thread
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Ok. That is a good definition.
Do we "fact check" prophets, to see that everything they "prophesy" comes true? It would be a simple matter to predict some future event, and say that "God told me about it"... but how often do these things come true?
I've never seen it happen... (doesn't mean it can't, or won't) and I've never seen any kind of verifiable prophecy with proof that it came to pass.
Other than the very generic "Woe unto everyone that does not believe in God" type of prophecy...
I would love to see something documented as being truly prophetic. I just never have.
Do we "fact check" prophets, to see that everything they "prophesy" comes true? It would be a simple matter to predict some future event, and say that "God told me about it"... but how often do these things come true?
I've never seen it happen... (doesn't mean it can't, or won't) and I've never seen any kind of verifiable prophecy with proof that it came to pass.
Other than the very generic "Woe unto everyone that does not believe in God" type of prophecy...
I would love to see something documented as being truly prophetic. I just never have.
Manuscript evidence and an examination of the words used say it is spurious.
The general rule, is that the almost 6000 manuscripts of part or all of the Greek NT show remarkable agreement. The longer ending of Mark is an exception to that rule.
It does not appear in the earliest and most important manuscripts, codex Vatican's and codex Sinaiticus (א) as well as other early manuscripts or versions., including the Old Latin, Sinaitic Syriac manuscript, one hundred Armenian manuscripts and the tow oldest Georgian manuscripts.
Neither Clement of Alexandria nor Origen show any knowledge of the longer ending in their writings, Eusebius and Jerome attest that Mark 16:9-20 were absent from the majority of Greek texts known to them. An ingenious system of cross-referencing parallel passages in the Gospels was devised by Ammonius in the 2nd century and adopted by Eusebius, in the 45h century and does not include the longer ending.
Although the longer ending does appear in Greek minuscule and uncial texts this does not compensate for the evidence against them. The fact that they are included is accounted for by the fact that the longer ending, which must have been added quite early was naturally included in subsequent copies of the Gospel. Many of the ancient manuscripts which include the longer ending indicate by scribal notes or various markings that the ending is regarded as a spurious addition to the Gospel.
The secondary nature of the longer ending is further witnessed within the actual text. First, the abrupt transition from the fear of the women in v 8, to a sudden presupposing of the resurrected Jesus, who appears to Mary Magdalene. She is introduced as a newcomer whom Jesus had driven out 7 demons, even though she has been mentioned three times before in the book. (15:40, 47; 16:1)
Jesus, for the first time in Mark is referred to as "the Lord Jesus" vs 19, or simply "the Lord" vs 20, rather than Mark's custom of calling Jesus by his given name. Such reverential nomenclature likely derives from later Christian worship.
Particularly notable is the number of new words that appear nowhere else in Mark. In the so-called shorter ending of Mark, 9 of the 39 words are new and in the longer ending, there are an additional eighteen words that otherwise do not appear in Mark, plus several unique word forms and syntactical constructions. Several of Mark's signature stylistic features are likewise absent in the longer ending.
The longer ending also includes themes peculiar to itself, some of which contradict Markian themes. The repeated chastising the disciples for their "disbelief" (vs 11, 14, 16) and the gospel proclamation (vv 11, 13, 14, 15, 16-18, 20) is unique to the longer ending, and the prominence given to charismatic signs in vv 17-18 stands in stark contrast to the reserve of Jesus in Mark with regard to signs and sensation (Mark 8:11-13).
External and internal signs necessitates the conclusion that Mark 16:9-20 is not the original ending of Mark but rather a later addition to the gospel. The longer ending is a patchwork of resurrection appearances taken from the 3 other gospels, the chief theme is the unbelief of the disciples. Although the longer ending is clearly secondary, and therefore not inspired, it is very old, perhaps dated to the first decades of the second century.
Had you also added "AND THE MOST CORRUPT" it would have rounded out your sentence. As I said, read The Last Twelve Verses of Mark instead of continuing to promote this fallacy and disturbing the faith of others.
Did you know that in Codex Vaticanus an actual space has been left blank to confirm that there was Scripture in Mark's Gospel which was EXPUNGED?
P. 87 ~ RE: The size of the blank space after Mark 16:8 in Codex Vaticanus. “It requires to be stated that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to begin every fresh book of the Bible at the top of the next ensuing column to that which contained the concluding words of the preceding book, has at the close of S. Mark’s Gospel deviated from his else invariable practice. He has left in this place one column entirely vacant. It is the only vacant column in the whole manuscript; - a blank space abundantly sufficient to contain the twelve verses which he nevertheless withheld.”
Did you know that in Codex Vaticanus an actual space has been left blank to confirm that there was Scripture in Mark's Gospel which was EXPUNGED?
P. 87 ~ RE: The size of the blank space after Mark 16:8 in Codex Vaticanus. “It requires to be stated that the scribe, whose plan is found to have been to begin every fresh book of the Bible at the top of the next ensuing column to that which contained the concluding words of the preceding book, has at the close of S. Mark’s Gospel deviated from his else invariable practice. He has left in this place one column entirely vacant. It is the only vacant column in the whole manuscript; - a blank space abundantly sufficient to contain the twelve verses which he nevertheless withheld.”
John W. Burgon.
The Last Twelve Verses...Vindicated (1871), p 87
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The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is nothing more then a emotional distraction from honest biblical reasoning. This "theology" is a safe place from logic for those who do not value proper reasoning or common sense. A world where experience replaces scripture, emotion replaces wisdom and hearsay replaces evidence. A world where the word of God takes a back seat to whatever the current revelation happens to be.
The claims of this movement are bogus. Not some claims, not many claims, not most claims but all of their claims.
They are not speaking in other tongues, healing the sick or raising the dead nor any other of the multitude of supernatural acts they present as evidence. They but shamelessly label the mundane as works of the Holy Spirit.
Those who present these workaday events as supernatural or submit mindless babble as a God inspired tongue are but mocking the true power of the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit does return to this world we will not debate but be in total awe, as were those of the 1st century. No one is flocking to these groups except the spiritual immature.
The claims of this movement are bogus. Not some claims, not many claims, not most claims but all of their claims.
They are not speaking in other tongues, healing the sick or raising the dead nor any other of the multitude of supernatural acts they present as evidence. They but shamelessly label the mundane as works of the Holy Spirit.
Those who present these workaday events as supernatural or submit mindless babble as a God inspired tongue are but mocking the true power of the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit does return to this world we will not debate but be in total awe, as were those of the 1st century. No one is flocking to these groups except the spiritual immature.
Sorry DJ2, but I don't agree.
You can't judge the Pentecostals by the charismatics, for they're 2 separate groups.
You can't judge either by what you see on TV, for they are nothing alike.
What I see is stereotyping.
If we can't judge all the Baptists by one ridiculous group, why are we doing it to these?
You can't judge the Pentecostals by the charismatics, for they're 2 separate groups.
You can't judge either by what you see on TV, for they are nothing alike.
What I see is stereotyping.
If we can't judge all the Baptists by one ridiculous group, why are we doing it to these?
The gift of prophesy is not clairvoyance.
When a person speaks forth in a tongue that is different from their daily prayer tongue
(that is our daily and often praying in the Holy Ghost) then this is followed by what is
called an "interpretation" of that speaking in tongues.
Interpretations tend to be about our faith, our walk, our need to improve and do things better,
or to love others more sincerely, to stay on track, keep the faith, to endure,
to build up our faith and to exercise the gift of the Holy Spirit by praying often in our spiritual
prayer language because it goes directly to God who is Spirit.
Interpretation confirms that tongues is God given and of the Holy Spirit.
Prophesy on the other hand is not about tomorrow you will meet someone tall, dark and handsome.
There are no personal revelations concerning tomorrow or next week this shall happen, so sell
up and hold hands.
When the prophets speak to a maximum of three, one after another - they speak of things in a
more generalised manner. This is for the edification and comfort of the body of Christ.
The Lord might speak along the lines of ... be not concerned with what is happening in the
world these days. My word and my prophecy concerning these last days shall come to
fruition. Endure and keep your faith for therein is your safety. There are still persons looking
for the truth and you must continue to go out and preach the gospel of salvation to them.
The time is short and my Son shall return in power and glory to claim his church.
Therefore do not be slothful but rather be diligent in serving Jesus your Lord and Saviour.
Prophesy is much more about what we need to do, and in giving direction for our efforts as
a church, as saints in the body of Christ.
One thing I know with all certainty through the gifts of prophesy that there will be no
pre-tribulation rapture for anybody. All Christians both Pentecostal or not will suffer
what is coming upon the world.
There will be a great falling away, but the wheat shall be separated from the chaff.
Are we ready? Will the Lord find faith on the earth when he returns?
When a person speaks forth in a tongue that is different from their daily prayer tongue
(that is our daily and often praying in the Holy Ghost) then this is followed by what is
called an "interpretation" of that speaking in tongues.
Interpretations tend to be about our faith, our walk, our need to improve and do things better,
or to love others more sincerely, to stay on track, keep the faith, to endure,
to build up our faith and to exercise the gift of the Holy Spirit by praying often in our spiritual
prayer language because it goes directly to God who is Spirit.
Interpretation confirms that tongues is God given and of the Holy Spirit.
Prophesy on the other hand is not about tomorrow you will meet someone tall, dark and handsome.
There are no personal revelations concerning tomorrow or next week this shall happen, so sell
up and hold hands.
When the prophets speak to a maximum of three, one after another - they speak of things in a
more generalised manner. This is for the edification and comfort of the body of Christ.
The Lord might speak along the lines of ... be not concerned with what is happening in the
world these days. My word and my prophecy concerning these last days shall come to
fruition. Endure and keep your faith for therein is your safety. There are still persons looking
for the truth and you must continue to go out and preach the gospel of salvation to them.
The time is short and my Son shall return in power and glory to claim his church.
Therefore do not be slothful but rather be diligent in serving Jesus your Lord and Saviour.
Prophesy is much more about what we need to do, and in giving direction for our efforts as
a church, as saints in the body of Christ.
One thing I know with all certainty through the gifts of prophesy that there will be no
pre-tribulation rapture for anybody. All Christians both Pentecostal or not will suffer
what is coming upon the world.
There will be a great falling away, but the wheat shall be separated from the chaff.
Are we ready? Will the Lord find faith on the earth when he returns?
I most certainly am referring to the entire movement. Not one individual has ever shown an example of what they claim they are doing.
The nature of their rebuttals is telling; "well you just missed it", "you are blind to the miraculous", "its happening over there".
There comes a time when a spade needs to be called a spade. You seem to be quite willing to judge me but not this movement, is their a reason for this? The issues presented on this thread are serious and cannot be ignored with a simple, well ........maybe its real.
If this movement is of God it must be embraced, if it is not it must be called out for what it is, a mocking of the Holy Spirit. This is the sin of this movement, the mockery of the divine and the silence of Christians fearful to speak up against it.
There is no middle ground or grey area on this subject. God is either behind this movement or not.
Hiding behind the worn out excuse of not wanting to judge is an excuse for inaction and a open playground for wolves in sheep's clothing.
The nature of their rebuttals is telling; "well you just missed it", "you are blind to the miraculous", "its happening over there".
There comes a time when a spade needs to be called a spade. You seem to be quite willing to judge me but not this movement, is their a reason for this? The issues presented on this thread are serious and cannot be ignored with a simple, well ........maybe its real.
If this movement is of God it must be embraced, if it is not it must be called out for what it is, a mocking of the Holy Spirit. This is the sin of this movement, the mockery of the divine and the silence of Christians fearful to speak up against it.
There is no middle ground or grey area on this subject. God is either behind this movement or not.
Hiding behind the worn out excuse of not wanting to judge is an excuse for inaction and a open playground for wolves in sheep's clothing.
If you're not talking to a foreigner who is unable to comprehend the language you speak, then keep your mouth shut. What happens if the entire church is speaking in tongues and an unbeliever walks into the church while that's happening? Is that a good witness for Christ?
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? (1 Corinthians 14:22-23)
Our master likes us to practice the common sense that He created us with.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? (1 Corinthians 14:22-23)
Our master likes us to practice the common sense that He created us with.
here's a link to a great teaching from Bill Johnson on hosting the presence.
It's pretty hard to host His presence when you declare His presence doesn't exist.
https://youtu.be/4lL3vVFxG2E
blessings to all believers
It's pretty hard to host His presence when you declare His presence doesn't exist.
https://youtu.be/4lL3vVFxG2E
blessings to all believers