Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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ResidentAlien

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I'm apologize for my previous post. That was just my first reaction and perhaps it would've been better unposted.

My problems with Pentecostalism are many, but jealousy is certainly not one of them. At least I'm not jealous of Pentecostals or whatever "success" they may be having.

Actually, I believe many converts to Pentecostalism are false converts who have drunk the Kool-Aid. If I'm jealous at all it's the kind of jealousy Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2—"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." More than anything, I'm angry and frustrated that people are falling for it.

There may be ministers or pastors who are jealous of Pentecostalism's success; however, I'm not one of them. I'm just a guy who loves the truth. If I thought Pentecostalism taught the truth I'd be the first to congratulate them.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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I'm apologize for my previous post. That was just my first reaction and perhaps it would've been better unposted.

My problems with Pentecostalism are many, but jealousy is certainly not one of them. At least I'm not jealous of Pentecostals or whatever "success" they may be having.

Actually, I believe many converts to Pentecostalism are false converts who have drunk the Kool-Aid. If I'm jealous at all it's the kind of jealousy Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2—"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." More than anything, I'm angry and frustrated that people are falling for it.

There may be ministers or pastors who are jealous of Pentecostalism's success; however, I'm not one of them. I'm just a guy who loves the truth. If I thought Pentecostalism taught the truth I'd be the first to congratulate them.
Now that's interesting!
Here's what Pentecostals teach:
1. God created the world in six days.
2. Mankind is sinful because of Adam's disobedience.
3. Jesus came to show the true nature of God.
4. He died on the cross to take our sin upon Himself.
5. An unbeliever must be born again of the Spirit of God.
6. True conversion to Christ must be demonstrated by a holy life.
7. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are available for churches today.
8. One day Jesus is going to come again and gather the saints to Himself.
9. We will all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and give account for our lives.
10. We will enter into heaven and experience the joys of the Lord for eternity.

In all the Pentecostal services I have attended throughout my long life, I have heard messages on all 10 of those points. I can't remember any messages about tongues exclusively or the importance of speaking in tongues to prove anything.

So, which parts of those points is false teaching?
 
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this is true yet, many Pentecostal churches are becoming less pentacostel. the only reason for sign and wonder to happen today is to testify that Jesus is alive and risen from the Dead. Acts 1:8 and Acts 4:33 Mark 16:16-20 MATTHEW 28


If you are in street ministry you will see and experience many things that most well-educated people who think they can analyze a demon possess a person and explain medially why they are doing what they are doing, yet the medical term will not set them free, Jesus does. Califonia has almost 40 % of the nation's homeless and it is a great demonic attack on people carried out by those who are demonized like the leaders of the Democratic Party and GOP in Califonia.

IF you do not have the power of God while ministering in CA you are trying to do it yourself. You will just another state plan giving out free food. The State of California has singled out the Christian church and was sued for doing so.

You try battling addiction where the State leadership does this:

  1. force closes churches ( only Christian) mosques were left open.
  2. give out money and free weed to the homeless and needles
  3. put up in 4-star hotels
  4. provided food and open street living meaning you can go to the public park or city street and make a little tent or cardboard HOME AND LIVE THERE
  5. prevent Christian from leading those to christ with laws against " Conversion therapy ".
  6. make illegal to call sin "sin"
  7. shut down many Christian daycare/preschool centers because the state now offers free daycare in the Preschool and what they call TK's programs. mom
The state of California has made the church obsolete and is doing what the church used to do BUT removed the Jesus Christ-centered program out of it.


Please try battling that with just a good sermon, or Bible study or a deeper understanding of the Book of Romans.

A devil does not care about your deeper meaning of scriptures They only listen to those who have the authority to use the name of Jesus. Those covered in the Blood, those empowered by the Holy Spirit. Those who stand up against ungodly leadership not follow in line and place the mask on and close church doors but Walmart can stay open.

One can have a form of godliness yet still deny the power of God. That was then not for today Well good luck.

The difference between a state ran "plan" and the church was Christ and the power of God and The Word of God. Without them, you are just giving out happy meals.
Pentecostal churches becoming less Pentecostal is just history repeating itself just as many churches were leaving their first love by the end of the First Century, and some almost taken over by false doctrine, as demonstrated by Jesus' message to the seven churches late in the First Century.

The Ephesian church, one of the most powerful churches of the First Century, planted by Paul and administered by Timothy, had, by the end of the First Century had become just a shadow of its former self.

The Methodist church under John Wesley was a powerful soul-winning movement, with healing miracles, but its power had largely declined within 100 years, and presently it is steeped in liberalism and preaches a social gospel, devoid of Christ.

The Salvation Army was very powerful in its time, leading tens of thousands to Christ. Less than 100 years later, it is now just an organisation offering social assistance to the underprivileged with little emphasis on the importance of receiving Christ as Saviour.

Similarly, the AOG churches are discouraging the manifestation of the spiritual gifts, and many have stopped manifesting tongues and interpretation of tongues in their public services. In fact, many AOG services are no different to non-Charismatic Baptist services.

If we study the revivals that have taken place over the last 200 years (The great awakenings in New England, the Welsh revival, the Indonesian revival, as examples,) we see that less than 100 years after, there is no sign that a revival ever took place.

Similarly, just over 100 years since the Pentecostal revival, when we visit the principal churches and organisations where the revival took place, we see no evidence of it at all. All we see are services with three hymns and a sermon, just like the non-Pentecostal churches around them. In fact, if you went to Azusa Street you would see no evidence of the building where the revival happened even existed.

I was a leader of Teen Challenge in Palmerston North, New Zealand. In 1970 when I first joined it, it was a powerful, soul-winning organisation, with a strong leadership. In six years, the leadership had changed (second generation), and it lost its interdominational nature and became the "evangelistic arm" of a local Charismatic church. Two years later, it folded, and now there is no evidence that a Teen Challenge in Wellington, Auckland, or Palmerston North ever existed. This is what happens when the leaders of an organisation, who had the vision for it, leave and new leaders without the same vision take over.

It is the same with the Pentecostal movement. The first generation of leaders had the vision, power, and faith to see God do mighty things in the area of transformed lives, deliverance from demonic bondage, and miracle healing. It took just two generations for the original Holy Spirit power to be diluted into just words, claiming miracles "by faith" that never took place. Just like Sampson, many thought they still had the power, but in reality they became just like the powerless churches around them.

I would not say that the problem is not false signs and wonders, it is more like false claims of "signs and wonders" that don't actually happen. It is one thing for a church to say, "We have signs and wonders happening here", and quite another thing to have the actual signs and wonders occurring. In my view, most of the advertising that some mega-churches have about signs and wonders happening in their midst, is just false advertising and fruitless promises.

For most "signs and wonders" churches, it is the same as the story about the Emperor's New Clothes", where his new clothes were imaginary, and in reality he was walking around in his underwear. It took a child to cry out, "The Emperor has no clothes on!" These churches are just pretending to have signs and wonders, when in fact, they are just like any other "three hymns and sermon" type churches.
 

Aidan1

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Those are lying signs and wonders and not of God. In most revivals through history, Satan has sought to intersperse the false with the true. The ignorant are mislead and accept the false as truth. The sceptical reject the true with the false. In recent years, the false has become more entrenched, leading to outright false doctrine, not just false signs. This includes teaching that tongues is essential evidence of salvation and that the Holy Spirit is Lord and Jesus is no longer relevant. We should not be surprised. Paul warns us to watch out for the false.

By no means does this invalidate the real gifts of the Spirit.
Thats right. For that he gave the gift to discern the Spirits.
 

Aidan1

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In actual fact, speaking in tongues is a sign to unbelievers that they will face the judgment of God if they don't turn to Christ. Paul quotes Isaiah who said that even though they are presented with the sign, they still won't hear God's voice warning them of the judgment to come.
If people are looking for a sign that they are filled with the Holy Spirit, then they need to look for evidence that they have been transformed from being in bondage to the works of the flesh to the freedom of showing the fruit of the Spirit. If a person claims to be baptised with the Spirit and still is showing the works of the flesh, it might show that they have some sort of spirit but not the Holy Spirit.
This it was in Pauls time. Today people claime that this is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
There is no biblical foundation for this teaching.
 

Aidan1

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Acts 10v44-47: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
This was an one time witness for the jews thatvthe Gospel is also for the gentiles, as Petet told this later to the Jerusalem believers out of the jews, and not an doctrine which was taught to other believers.
 

Evmur

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You're right, every church has errors. What concerns me about Pentecostalism, however, is it's massive growth and influence, both in the US and worldwide. It's leading many people astray and the number is growing. This isn't accidental either. If you study Aimee Semple McPherson or Oral Roberts either one, their goal was interdenominationalism. But this wasn't so they could incorporate aspects from other denominations into theirs, they wanted to influence other denominations with their charismatic doctrines. They've succeeded quite well.

I'm not trying to root out errors. I know errors will be there until the Lord returns. All I'm doing is warning people and giving them the truth. After all, the truth will set you free.
The growth comes because we win souls. let's talk about those errors which you perceive and the truth that sets us free.
 

Evmur

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This was an one time witness for the jews thatvthe Gospel is also for the gentiles, as Petet told this later to the Jerusalem believers out of the jews, and not an doctrine which was taught to other believers.
This scripture should be enough for anybody

"I would that ye did all speak in tongues"

Paul desired that YE should speak in tongues, why do you object?
 

Evmur

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"For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace—as in all the churches of the saints."—1 Corinthians 14:33

I don't really agree with your spin on Acts 2. But whatever happened then, that's not what God in our churches now.
There are different kinds of peace, a graveyard is quite peaceful and orderly, the graves are set out in neat rows.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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This it was in Pauls time. Today people claime that this is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
There is no biblical foundation for this teaching.
In actual fact, believers speaking in tongues is still the sign for unbelievers that there is a judgment to come for them. Believers don't need any external signs to confirm their faith. They have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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This it was in Pauls time. Today people claime that this is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
There is no biblical foundation for this teaching.
How do you know it was in Paul's day?
Because you read in the Holy Bible.
When did the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ever end?
If God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, isn't His Gifts the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
Or, are we now in the business of calling God a Liar?
 
Jun 9, 2021
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Pentecostal churches becoming less Pentecostal is just history repeating itself just as many churches were leaving their first love by the end of the First Century, and some almost taken over by false doctrine, as demonstrated by Jesus' message to the seven churches late in the First Century.

The Ephesian church, one of the most powerful churches of the First Century, planted by Paul and administered by Timothy, had, by the end of the First Century had become just a shadow of its former self.

The Methodist church under John Wesley was a powerful soul-winning movement, with healing miracles, but its power had largely declined within 100 years, and presently it is steeped in liberalism and preaches a social gospel, devoid of Christ.

The Salvation Army was very powerful in its time, leading tens of thousands to Christ. Less than 100 years later, it is now just an organisation offering social assistance to the underprivileged with little emphasis on the importance of receiving Christ as Saviour.

Similarly, the AOG churches are discouraging the manifestation of the spiritual gifts, and many have stopped manifesting tongues and interpretation of tongues in their public services. In fact, many AOG services are no different to non-Charismatic Baptist services.

If we study the revivals that have taken place over the last 200 years (The great awakenings in New England, the Welsh revival, the Indonesian revival, as examples,) we see that less than 100 years after, there is no sign that a revival ever took place.

Similarly, just over 100 years since the Pentecostal revival, when we visit the principal churches and organisations where the revival took place, we see no evidence of it at all. All we see are services with three hymns and a sermon, just like the non-Pentecostal churches around them. In fact, if you went to Azusa Street you would see no evidence of the building where the revival happened even existed.

I was a leader of Teen Challenge in Palmerston North, New Zealand. In 1970 when I first joined it, it was a powerful, soul-winning organisation, with a strong leadership. In six years, the leadership had changed (second generation), and it lost its interdominational nature and became the "evangelistic arm" of a local Charismatic church. Two years later, it folded, and now there is no evidence that a Teen Challenge in Wellington, Auckland, or Palmerston North ever existed. This is what happens when the leaders of an organisation, who had the vision for it, leave and new leaders without the same vision take over.

It is the same with the Pentecostal movement. The first generation of leaders had the vision, power, and faith to see God do mighty things in the area of transformed lives, deliverance from demonic bondage, and miracle healing. It took just two generations for the original Holy Spirit power to be diluted into just words, claiming miracles "by faith" that never took place. Just like Sampson, many thought they still had the power, but in reality they became just like the powerless churches around them.

I would not say that the problem is not false signs and wonders, it is more like false claims of "signs and wonders" that don't actually happen. It is one thing for a church to say, "We have signs and wonders happening here", and quite another thing to have the actual signs and wonders occurring. In my view, most of the advertising that some mega-churches have about signs and wonders happening in their midst, is just false advertising and fruitless promises.

For most "signs and wonders" churches, it is the same as the story about the Emperor's New Clothes", where his new clothes were imaginary, and in reality he was walking around in his underwear. It took a child to cry out, "The Emperor has no clothes on!" These churches are just pretending to have signs and wonders, when in fact, they are just like any other "three hymns and sermon" type churches.
If anything, it proves in the LAST days many will lose their first Love, God, and be deceived.
Look at the Denominations like Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Wesleyan, etc allowing same sex Ministers and Leaders in the Church.
It literally is the signs of the times.
But it does crack me up to have some rip on Pentecostals and Speaking in Tongues when other Denominations are allowing the WORST kind of Abomination [LBGT&Q] be the spokes person representing Almighty God!
Talk about a Farce and a Rebellion as equal to WITCHCRAFT!


Isn't that the ole take that splinter out of your eye because the telephone pole in mine won't allow me to judge you properly?
 

Gideon300

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Yea, we actually had some of the "Laughing Movement" out of Brownsville, Florida in our own little church, here in the Pacific NW. I never bought into it, though it was quite amusing. ;) Maybe God tolerated a little good humor??

I like everything you say. I also am "wordy." Watchman Nee, who I love to quote, used to say that revelation came by just a few words. Those few words could open up an entire message. I think that's true. Sometimes we try to beat a message into someone, when all we really need to do is say it. The recipient is responsible for receiving it or not.

On the other hand, Nee used to say that the burden has to be lifted, before moving on. If you sense you're not getting through, and the recipient may be open, you need to persevere, humbly. The burden can eventually be lifted when the message is delivered.

Yea, the sower has to find useable dirt. Just the right conditions have to exist for a seed to grow and mature properly. So many jobs need to be done, and every Christian has a job.

But life isn't all about work. Consider Martha and Mary--Mary chose the better way. Take care, and thanks for the continuing conversation. I enjoy it!
:) One of the things that God does is to break up the hard "soil" of those He seeks to save. I "made a decision" at a Billy Graham outreach in 1967. It did not stick. It was not Dr Graham's fault. One of my acquaintances got truly born again. I could see the difference in his countenance immediately. It was scary. Several years later, after much turmoil, alcohol abuse and disenchantment with life, my boss witnessed to me after work one evening. I was saved properly that time.

My experience is one reason why I don't accept that we need to be baptised in water to be saved. I was in the Navy, at sea somewhere, surrounded by water. I had no knowledge of baptism. The man who led me to the Lord believed in baby sprinkling so the subject never came up. And I doubt the captain would have stopped the ship to allow me to be dunked.

I knew I was different. That's about all I knew. The Bible that once I could not read became a treasure chest to me. The Lord led me to many different denominations. I knew very little and we went to many different countries. So I went to church wherever I could, whenever I could. No denomination has all the truth and the vast majority of Christians do not care about denominational distinctions. God commands the blessing when brethren dwell in unity. (Psalm 133.) I look forward to the day when we see that in reality. Then maybe we will be as blessed as the church in China.
 

Aidan1

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This scripture should be enough for anybody

"I would that ye did all speak in tongues"

Paul desired that YE should speak in tongues, why do you object?
Have all the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interprete? 1. Cor.12:30
The teaching that all who are baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this is the speaking in tongues says with other words. If you dont speak in tongues you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit. This is in my eyes a false teaching
 

Evmur

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Have all the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interprete? 1. Cor.12:30
The teaching that all who are baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this is the speaking in tongues says with other words. If you dont speak in tongues you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit. This is in my eyes a false teaching
I been Pentecostalist more than 40 years and apart from AOG I know of nobody else who teach that speaking in tongues is requisite to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and even among them it is pretty loosely held. Although we do see that in every instance in the bible account everybody who was baptised in the Holy Spirit did in fact speak in tongues, whether there were Jews present or not.

Jesus says "these signs shall follow those who believe they shall speak in other tongues ... "

That is not the point, the point is why on earth would anybody displease themselves with such a precious gift? Paul spoke in tongues, he desired that we all should but also that we would covet the more valuable gifts.

But if people sniff and scoff and displease themselves at tongues I question whether they will be able to receive the other gifts.
 

Aidan1

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I been Pentecostalist more than 40 years and apart from AOG I know of nobody else who teach that speaking in tongues is requisite to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and even among them it is pretty loosely held. Although we do see that in every instance in the bible account everybody who was baptised in the Holy Spirit did in fact speak in tongues, whether there were Jews present or not.

Jesus says "these signs shall follow those who believe they shall speak in other tongues ... "

That is not the point, the point is why on earth would anybody displease themselves with such a precious gift? Paul spoke in tongues, he desired that we all should but also that we would covet the more valuable gifts.

But if people sniff and scoff and displease themselves at tongues I question whether they will be able to receive the other gifts.
Then you should look into the beginning of this teaching in Topeka and Azusa. Indeed today you can find many different directions and meanings of this teachings through the splittings and the charismatic movements of the last century. Even on CC.
I dont know any charismatic ore pentecostal who is teaching this not. The different is, that same claim it is for salvation, others say for empowerment/ filled with the Spirit.
The second dont say you need it as Christian, but... let you know that you in the case you font search for, you ignore/ deney a profit which the Holy Spirit is ready to give.
I cant find this teaching in the bible! You make out of the events in Acts 2,8, 10 and 19 an doctrine, but cant show that this ever was taught.
You made of one of the smallest gifts, the most important gift. Even Paul says it is better to prophecie then to speak 8n tongues.
And even if you lack on love this speaking on tongues is worthless.
 

CS1

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I'm apologize for my previous post. That was just my first reaction and perhaps it would've been better unposted.

My problems with Pentecostalism are many, but jealousy is certainly not one of them. At least I'm not jealous of Pentecostals or whatever "success" they may be having.

Actually, I believe many converts to Pentecostalism are false converts who have drunk the Kool-Aid. If I'm jealous at all it's the kind of jealousy Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2—"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." More than anything, I'm angry and frustrated that people are falling for it.

There may be ministers or pastors who are jealous of Pentecostalism's success; however, I'm not one of them. I'm just a guy who loves the truth. If I thought Pentecostalism taught the truth I'd be the first to congratulate them.
I find it funny you say that only about Pentecostals yet in your own church they are there too. look in the mirror.
 

CS1

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Then you should look into the beginning of this teaching in Topeka and Azusa. Indeed today you can find many different directions and meanings of this teachings through the splittings and the charismatic movements of the last century. Even on CC.
I dont know any charismatic ore pentecostal who is teaching this not. The different is, that same claim it is for salvation, others say for empowerment/ filled with the Spirit.
The second dont say you need it as Christian, but... let you know that you in the case you font search for, you ignore/ deney a profit which the Holy Spirit is ready to give.
I cant find this teaching in the bible! You make out of the events in Acts 2,8, 10 and 19 an doctrine, but cant show that this ever was taught.
You made of one of the smallest gifts, the most important gift. Even Paul says it is better to prophecie then to speak 8n tongues.
And even if you lack on love this speaking on tongues is worthless.
again you don't know what you are talking bout. Just a hateful person.
 

CS1

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Have all the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interprete? 1. Cor.12:30
The teaching that all who are baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this is the speaking in tongues says with other words. If you dont speak in tongues you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit. This is in my eyes a false teaching

no, but all the gifts are to every Christian as The Holy Spirit enables. YOU think they hAVE STOPPED BUT HAVE NO PROOF from the word of God. Those like you say " it had to go away or we would see it and the news would report it".
Here is something you don't either in your church those getting saved and healed yet you say why are healing not happening I agree,


Why are you not seeing it at your church? Don't you pray for people? That right you pray God's will yet you don't see in the word of God where Jesus desires to heal people through you. You are just afraid and have no faith. Do all get saved? No, does that means we don't try to lead them to Christ? NO! Do all get healed? no! does that mean we don't cry out to God for one to be healed in the name of Jesus and believe HE will do t, and if it doesn't happen accept the answer. You think one is causing false hope? No, those who think such have no hope.
 
Jun 9, 2021
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Have all the gift of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interprete? 1. Cor.12:30
The teaching that all who are baptised with the Holy Spirit and as sign for this is the speaking in tongues says with other words. If you dont speak in tongues you are not baptised with the Holy Spirit. This is in my eyes a false teaching



From Jesus' own MOUTH, He said:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
What Did Yeshua say?

1) Go and Preach to the World
2) He that BELIEVES and IS BAPTIZED is saved and not be damned

How will you know Who is SAVED?
From Verse 17:
1) they will have SIGNS that follow them

What are these SIGNS that follow those who are SAVED and BELIEVE?
1) They will Cast of Devils
2) They will Speak with new TONGUES
3) like Paul did when picking up drift wood a Venomous snake bit him and nothing happened
4) If they drink something deadly it will not hurt them
5) They shall lay hands on the sick and the sick will be HEALED


You claim to be saved.
Which of the 5 SIGNS of being SAVED have you been able to do?

Have you ever cast out devils?
Have you ever Spoke in Tongues?
Have you ever been bitten by a poisonous snake and the Faith God gave you was better than modern medicine?
Have you ever been poisoned by no fault of your own and survived?
Have you ever put your hands on someone and prayed for healing and they were healed?

If you've never done any of these things, do you believe you are saved?

And REMEMBER, this is Christ saying this. And His Words are the SAME yesterday-today-forever. So they NEVER change.

What have you done that the SIGNS that follow you tell me you're SAVED?
Complain about Pentecostals and Speaking in Tongues?
Yeah, that is DEFINITELY YOUR SIGNS!
A Complainer of God's Holy Word!