Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[ChristianTonyB]

There's no doubt the Holy Spirit is able distribute His gifts as He sees fit. And He is able to do that in the here and now. However, He won't/can't hand His gifts out in a church that is a division from, and therefore works contrary to, the church Jesus established. Most if not all of the claimed manifestations of the Holy Spirit I saw and heard in various pentecostal and chasmatic assemblies I attended in the past were counterfeit.

It's a shame really. People are genuinely wanting to see manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their lives...besides the various spiritual, mental and heath benefits that can be gotten from them, they would be a confidence booster for us as they would confirm God's interest in us, and that our salvation walk is heading in the right direction. I think the need we have for that, and our rightful belief that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are still available for us today, and our want to prove that our understanding is correct, can drive us into conjuring up our own manifestations of the Spirit.

It's amazing how our minds can convince us of the veracity of our own rhetoric, even though it can be groundless.

 

[ResidentAlien]

What groups are these? Where is your proof?

What do you mean by "groups?" I'm not sure I understand the exact nature of your question.

 

[Edify]

There's no doubt the Holy Spirit is able distribute His gifts as He sees fit. And He is able to do that in the here and now. However, He won't/can't hand His gifts out in a church that is a division from, and therefore works contrary to, the church Jesus established. Most if not all of the claimed manifestations of the Holy Spirit I saw and heard in various pentecostal and chasmatic assemblies I attended in the past were counterfeit.

It's a shame really. People are genuinely wanting to see manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their lives...besides the various spiritual, mental and heath benefits that can be gotten from them, they would be a confidence booster for us as they would confirm God's interest in us, and that our salvation walk is heading in the right direction. I think the need we have for that, and our rightful belief that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are still available for us today, and our want to prove that our understanding is correct, can drive us into conjuring up our own manifestations of the Spirit.

It's amazing how our minds can convince us of the veracity of our own rhetoric, even though it can be groundless.

I agree with most of what you say here, but that bolded statement I have trouble with.
I have been in the Pentecostal church since I was 17. And, yes, I saw fake manifestations because many were caught up in the excitement the Holy Spirit can bring. Some wanted the Baptism simply because others had it & they were left out.
I remember one teen who thought he had it but there were no changes in his life. I told him in school(myself hadn't received it yet)"Now that you have it what are you going to do with it?!?" I didn't know any better, but I already witnessed those who truly had it were doing things for God, & he wasn't.
Do I think it happens in most christians in pentecostal churches? Quite a few, for those ignorantly faking it have no new fruits whatsoever. Does that make it all bad? By no means! It's great to have such a manifestation of the Spirit in the church that's so exciting & joyful that others want it too!

3 things I believe needs to change:
1. teach regularily the purpose & ministry of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit & the Gifts of the Spirit.
2. Leadership needs to "call out " those who are faking it for whatever reason in meekness & love.
3. Those who refuse to quit faking & those with an evil, counterfeit spirit need to be sent away for the sake of purity in the body of Christ.

We must remember one important thing: if the manifestations of the Spirit are being faked & counterfeited, that means the enemy knows its true value & he's trying to abuse it & shut it down.

 

[Edify]

What do you mean by "groups?" I'm not sure I understand the exact nature of your question.

Who are these people you are talking about that need to confess they have founders that need to be separated from?
Your lips are moving, but I don't see anthing real coming out.
There's an old saying: mess, or get off the pot.
I think it's about time you get off the pot.

 

[DavidTree]

There's no doubt the Holy Spirit is able distribute His gifts as He sees fit. And He is able to do that in the here and now. However, He won't/can't hand His gifts out in a church that is a division from, and therefore works contrary to, the church Jesus established. Most if not all of the claimed manifestations of the Holy Spirit I saw and heard in various pentecostal and chasmatic assemblies I attended in the past were counterfeit.

It's a shame really. People are genuinely wanting to see manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their lives...besides the various spiritual, mental and heath benefits that can be gotten from them, they would be a confidence booster for us as they would confirm God's interest in us, and that our salvation walk is heading in the right direction. I think the need we have for that, and our rightful belief that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are still available for us today, and our want to prove that our understanding is correct, can drive us into conjuring up our own manifestations of the Spirit.

It's amazing how our minds can convince us of the veracity of our own rhetoric, even though it can be groundless.

You have made some good valid points and yet are you doing the very thing you warn against?

AGREE = Never fall into the trap of "convincing yourself of the veracity of your own rhetoric, even though it can be groundless."

God wants His People firmly grounded on His Word = "all other ground is sinking sand."

Discerning and exposing false manifestations is what the Holy Spirit does for those who have Him.
Speaking in Tongues and/or the manifestations of Holy Spirit Gifts is the Promise of the Father = cherish that Promise.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Who are these people you are talking about that need to confess they have founders that need to be separated from?
Your lips are moving, but I don't see anthing real coming out.
There's an old saying: mess, or get off the pot.
I think it's about time you get off the pot.

You're not looking for answers but a debate.

I have so much "proof" I wouldn't have time today to post it all. I'd try to help you out if I thought you're sincere, but I can tell from you're tone and from your previous posts that it wouldn't matter if I post the proof or if I don't you'll still find a reason to debate. So why waste my time?

Have a blessed day.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I agree with most of what you say here, but that bolded statement I have trouble with.
I have been in the Pentecostal church since I was 17. And, yes, I saw fake manifestations because many were caught up in the excitement the Holy Spirit can bring. Some wanted the Baptism simply because others had it & they were left out.
I remember one teen who thought he had it but there were no changes in his life. I told him in school(myself hadn't received it yet)"Now that you have it what are you going to do with it?!?" I didn't know any better, but I already witnessed those who truly had it were doing things for God, & he wasn't.
Do I think it happens in most christians in pentecostal churches? Quite a few, for those ignorantly faking it have no new fruits whatsoever. Does that make it all bad? By no means! It's great to have such a manifestation of the Spirit in the church that's so exciting & joyful that others want it too!

3 things I believe needs to change:
1. teach regularily the purpose & ministry of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit & the Gifts of the Spirit.
2. Leadership needs to "call out " those who are faking it for whatever reason in meekness & love.
3. Those who refuse to quit faking & those with an evil, counterfeit spirit need to be sent away for the sake of purity in the body of Christ.

We must remember one important thing: if the manifestations of the Spirit are being faked & counterfeited, that means the enemy knows its true value & he's trying to abuse it & shut it down.

Yes, that's true, that's what the evil one does.

However, I feel you may have missed a crucial point I was trying to make Edify, probably because I didn't annunciate it properly, and that is that the Holy Spirit will not visit a church that has a religion formed by man. All the pentecostal and charasmatic assemblies I visited were denominations/man made, not God made. Jesus would not call His assemblies pentecostal, or non pentecostal, or charismatic, or non charismatic. What I experienced, and some of these were big churches, were manifestations of people's vain imaginations, not manifestations of the Holy Spirit. At least, that was my experience.

 

[Edify]

@ RA We're on the 38th page & you still have no proof showing. We've given you time for evidence & all you do is accuse & mock.
Excuse me, sir, but your fruit is showing.

 

[Edify]

Yes, that's true, that's what the evil one does.

However, I feel you may have missed a crucial point I was trying to make Edify, probably because I didn't annunciate it properly, and that is that the Holy Spirit will not visit a church that has a religion formed by man. All the pentecostal and charasmatic assemblies I visited were denominations/man made, not God made. Jesus would not call His assemblies pentecostal, or non pentecostal, or charismatic, or non charismatic. What I experienced, and some of these were big churches, were manifestations of people's vain imaginations, not manifestations of the Holy Spirit. At least, that was my experience.

I understand, really. I've sat on a state board that was locked down stiff on tithing & refused to budge. That was only one of the things I discovered.
You must remember the multiple times God dealt with Israel & Judah with their sin issues. God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentence. From their examples, plus having a better covenant established on better promises the Lord is still merciful & longsuffering towards us. None of us have it all together, esp. me, But I know God is still with me. It's by grace we are saved, not by getting all of our duck in a row.

 

[CS1]

There's no doubt the Holy Spirit is able distribute His gifts as He sees fit. And He is able to do that in the here and now. However, He won't/can't hand His gifts out in a church that is a division from, and therefore works contrary to, the church Jesus established. Most if not all of the claimed manifestations of the Holy Spirit I saw and heard in various pentecostal and chasmatic assemblies I attended in the past were counterfeit.

It's a shame really. People are genuinely wanting to see manifestations of the Holy Spirit in their lives...besides the various spiritual, mental and heath benefits that can be gotten from them, they would be a confidence booster for us as they would confirm God's interest in us, and that our salvation walk is heading in the right direction. I think the need we have for that, and our rightful belief that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are still available for us today, and our want to prove that our understanding is correct, can drive us into conjuring up our own manifestations of the Spirit.

It's amazing how our minds can convince us of the veracity of our own rhetoric, even though it can be groundless.

The sad thing is your experience is not the authoritative word of God. Clearly, you have attended the wrong places. You say there is no doubt The Holy Spirit is able to distribute His Gifts, then say but because I have not seen what is real I doubt it. LOL

God doesn't need you to authenticate HiS gifts. Most people don't even know how to discern who is saved as they sit next to them in church. You seek the counterfeit that is why you see it.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I understand, really. I've sat on a state board that was locked down stiff on tithing & refused to budge. That was only one of the things I discovered.
You must remember the multiple times God dealt with Israel & Judah with their sin issues. God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentence. From their examples, plus having a better covenant established on better promises the Lord is still merciful & longsuffering towards us. None of us have it all together, esp. me, But I know God is still with me. It's by grace we are saved, not by getting all of our duck in a row.

I can't even catch my ducks, let alone line them up in a row 🙄

 

[CS1]

I can't even catch my ducks, let alone line them up in a row 🙄

you need to Qack

I can't even catch my ducks, let alone line them up in a row 🙄

brother and walk with them the will follow you LOL. In a line

 

[ChristianTonyB]

The sad thing is your experience is not the authoritative word of God. Clearly, you have attended the wrong places. You say there is no doubt The Holy Spirit is able to distribute His Gifts, then say but because I have not seen what is real I doubt it. LOL

God doesn't need you to authenticate HiS gifts. Most people don't even know how to discern who is saved as they sit next to them in church. You seek the counterfeit that is why you see it.

Why are you so rude and vindictive?

No, I said what I have seen was counterfeit, and that the Holy Spirit would not have visited those assemblies. You may have had a different experience.

 

[JTB]

You're not looking for answers but a debate.

I have so much "proof" I wouldn't have time today to post it all. I'd try to help you out if I thought you're sincere, but I can tell from you're tone and from your previous posts that it wouldn't matter if I post the proof or if I don't you'll still find a reason to debate. So why waste my time?

Have a blessed day.

Two thoughts...

1. Truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they think they know

2. No matter how much you know, today is not the day to stop learning

 

[Edify]

We will always disagree on things because our experiences are different. But it is BECAUSE of our different experiences we can always bring something fresh & new to the table. I think because of this christians can make up the body by every joint that supplieth to the body. Because of our differences we are needed.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

We will always disagree on things because our experiences are different. But it is BECAUSE of our different experiences we can always bring something fresh & new to the table. I think because of this christians can make up the body by every joint that supplieth to the body. Because of our differences we are needed.

And the apostle encourages: 'it is not wrong that you have disagreements, because it is through those that the truth will be outed'. It's sad that disagreements have caused divisions in the past. We are supposed to stay together even if we do disagree, that is unless it's a faith or moral issue that God wouldn't tolerate.

Anyway, I've got a full time job getting my own act together, rather than focussing on someone else's. It's not that I don't care about others' welfares, it's just that this log is a rather heavy sucker, and I have no energy left after trying to tug it out of the way. 😒

 

[ChristianTonyB]

CS1 said:
The sad thing is your experience is not the authoritative word of God. Clearly, you have attended the wrong places. You say there is no doubt The Holy Spirit is able to distribute His Gifts, then say but because I have not seen what is real I doubt it. LOL

God doesn't need you to authenticate HiS gifts. Most people don't even know how to discern who is saved as they sit next to them in church. You seek the counterfeit that is why you see it.
======
My reply:
No, I said what I have seen was counterfeit, and that the Holy Spirit would not have visited those assemblies. You may have had a different experience.
======

Sorry, that was a rather harsh response of mine, my apologies.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

you need to Qack

brother and walk with them the will follow you LOL. In a line

I'll give that a try, but whenever I get them close up my cat scatters them 😼🤨

 

[ResidentAlien]

Two thoughts...

1. Truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they think they know

2. No matter how much you know, today is not the day to stop learning

Care to elaborate? I no good as a mind reader.

 

[CS1]

Why are you so rude and vindictive?

No, I said what I have seen was counterfeit, and that the Holy Spirit would not have visited those assemblies. You may have had a different experience.

I am sorry you think I am rude, yet you fail to see your own comments in themselves are bais and inflammatory. Are saying there is no counterfeit in other churches that are non-charismatic & Pentacostel? You said those are counterfeit you saw were Ok, please give one that you have seen that was not?

Can you do that?