Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

[Waggles]

except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.

?????
the gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed within the Spirit-filled church for the exhortation, comfort and teaching of the saints.
These gifts are given to identify and uphold the power and presence of God working within his church - thus in my church
we have numerous testimonies to healings, miracles, divine provision, safety from dangers, blessings ...

we do not seek after the gifts for they are readily dispersed to us as needed in our walk and purpose within the body of Christ:
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to
the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing,
helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Corinthians 12:

 

[Absolutely]

I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.

"...which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered"
You either didn't look ,or just made that up .
Paul makes the distinction over and over. Christians walking in the spirit vs christians walking in the flesh.
But even Jesus classified those born again as full of the spirit vs bare essential carnal believers.
The epistles were all written by spirit baptised men,to other spirit baptised men.

Jesus sets the pattern twice,we are without excuse.
1) he NEVER started his ministry until he was baptised in the Holy Ghost.
2) he ordered his church "tarry in Jerusalem till you are endued with power.

About all the mental church can do is spin a fable
"Well the gifts ended and the Holy Spirit and jesus changed jobs"

Ironically it "Works" for them.
They have no power.

Amazing how Jesus knew what we needed for ministry.
Also ironic that it was the Pharisees that were offended by His power.

It was they he invoked the unpardonable sin upon.
They labeled the power of the Holy Spirit as demonic.

 

[crossnote]

?????
the gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed within the Spirit-filled church for the exhortation, comfort and teaching of the saints.
These gifts are given to identify and uphold the power and presence of God working within his church - thus in my church
we have numerous testimonies to healings, miracles, divine provision, safety from dangers, blessings ...

we do not seek after the gifts for they are readily dispersed to us as needed in our walk and purpose within the body of Christ:
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to
the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing,
helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Corinthians 12:

You cut off my phrase in the middle, rendering it meaningless...

'I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.'

Another reason I don't stick with charismatics, they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.

 

[Absolutely]

So much energy spent attacking charismatics that are at least trying and believing.
Why not excel and bring others up?
Show them the proper way.
We can see your deal and it ain't pretty.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

He goes on to describe miracles.

No miracles....no Jesus.
We need help,not destroying

 

[calibob]

I can see both sides pretty clearly. In my own experience I've seen people exaggerate, over emphasize and some times fall victim tp a mass psychosis.

This is not to imply that the Holy Spirit does not exist or it does not bestow gifts on those it chooses however there is nowhere in the Bible that it says; we must speak in tongues or preform signs and wonders to prove we are saved, if we are saved. That's nonsense. We most believe that Jesus is, (not was) the Son of God and that he allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sins. If we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus is (not was) Lord we shall be saved. That's the key. Our works are may be good but without the blood to cover our sins they are dung.

 

[Magenta]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So much energy spent attacking charismatics that are at least trying and believing.
Why not excel and bring others up?
Show them the proper way.
We can see your deal and it ain't pretty.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

He goes on to describe miracles.

No miracles....no Jesus.
We need help,not destroying

well 2013 was a kick off year for that event thanks to John MacArthur and his short sighted and long winded attacks on ANYONE who spoke/speaks in tongues

he is infamous for his 'strange fire' conference and the book of the same name

while he certainly had valid points regarding excess, to label ALL who speak in tongues as demonic and or deceived is an attack on half the body of Christ and honestly, it leaves me wondering what spirit speaks through him, even though Pentecostals and Charasmatics contine to call him 'brother'

since that time, people have gone out of their way to mimic his unbiblical insights and rage with much the same kind of rhetoric

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You cut off my phrase in the middle, rendering it meaningless...

'I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.'

Another reason I don't stick with charismatics, they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.

the broad brush strokes of 'sloppy exegesis' really are not accurate and not appreciated

to state ALL of ANY group is poor communication and alienates many people

in fact, cessationists who have attended the strange fire conference and or read the book, have been puzzled at MacArthur's all inclusive demonic labelling and deception dunking

 

[garee]

I have heard the accusation by non-Pentecostals (those who adamantly reject the validity of the pentecostal doctrine) that to believe in an additional experience that empowers one to be a witness suggest that we think that a brother who does not believe as we do is "less" powerful a witness. Then based on this premise they state that we make ourselves out to be the "elite". My answer to this would be to ask them the question "Do you think one of your ministers who pray daily for the Lord to use him in ministry in the church will be more effective than the minister who does not pray at all?" If he is honest he will agree that the praying minister will most assuredly be more effective. Then would you say he is claiming to be elite? It is ludicrous to accuse those who ask for the filling of the Holy Spirit to empower them to be a witness, of claiming super Christian status. When the apostles were let out of jail after being beaten and told not to preach anymore in Jesus name, they gathered with the church and prayed for the Holy Spirit to fill them and empower them to preach boldly in His Name. The place was shaken and they preached the word boldly. That was additional experience after salvation and you would do good to follow their example all the days of your life on earth. I would doubt the salvation of anyone who thinks they are better than their Christian brother because they have experienced gifts from the Spirit of God. Gifts given by the Spirit of God are still gifts and not something we can boast about. Those who do boast or claim some special authority because of their gifts should be marked as false brethren and not to be trusted. The Spirit of God will produce humility, not showmanship

What if they claim special authority as a "sign gift" one outwardly witnessed like falling backward slain by the Spirit or making a noise without understanding. . ? What would that sign represent by looking to the foundation of the tongue doctrine? (Isaiah 28)

Spiritual gifts, gift of the Spirit not seen, yes. Sign gifts .The bible does not use those two words together to make a doctrine .That comes from the witness of walking by sight (no faith) The kind the faithless Jews used to make a circus seal out of Christ .Do a trick that that we might see and then we will believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

As David said in the Palms .Destroy the foundation of the doctrines of tongues (Isaiah 28) what can we do?

 

[garee]

QUOTE "UnitedWithChrist, post: 4008720, member: 287917"]I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years. The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time."

Whoever said this must be confused about the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness. Luke emphasized the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the gospel. Paul emphasized the work of the Spirit in sanctification. Many people have tried to interpret Lukes statements in the light of Paul's teachings. If someone is stating that the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is to make carnal christians more holy they have misunderstood the text. The purpose of this second work of grace was for empowering to witness. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in every believer who puts their faith in Jesus Christ. This is sufficient for holy living and sanctification. A carnal Christian needs to repent and love Jesus more. They need to fear God and realize that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Speaking in tongues was not for sanctification but for witnessing, edification in the church with an interpreter and praying between themselves and God if there was not as Paul stated in 1 cor 14. I don't doubt you may have heard someone say they became holier after their experience but I think they were confused about the purpose of pentecostal experience. I suppose however if one is seeking God for the infilling of the Holy Spirit to be a witness such seeking after God is going to result in ever increasing holiness simply because you are praying for more of His power.

The purpose of this what you call "second work of grace that was for empowering to witness. In the end of the matter. . . Dividing grace as if all believers did not receive the fulness as the result of first believing .It is like that of Catholicism doing respite to grace offering it in remnants . a little here a little there falling backward .

The Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness offers no outward sign. The water baptism is of a old testament ceremonial law used when a new priest enter the ministry. it was passed by Levi down through Jesus from Judah (John 3:25) the new high priest.

To be baptized with water is merely a personal desire to be a member of the priesthood . It does not give witness as a confirmation they are saved. Aaron two sons found that out the hard way when they added their own personal touch as a sign against them .They were consumed by the fire of God's judgement . No sign gifts...

 

[CherieR]

this should be addressed as a separate issue

youtube, while it can be entertaining, is not a study guide and frankly I do not agree with teaching people to speak in tongues per se

however, people do need to be taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and in a sound and biblical manner

youtube is also a great resource for cessationists and has been well used in this forum for that very purpose

in other words, youtube benefits those who either do not know how to study the multitude of available study material or are just too used to using social media as their benefactor for all things anyone wants to know at any time in this present day and age

I would say that sometimes youtube has it right and others times it does not. With so many people speaking about their views on bible related topics, some more or less understanding of Scripture than others, it is important to be discerning.

 

[garee]

Well obviously that would be true ... it would seem that you have no been baptised in the Holy Spirit as you do not know of
what this means nor can you pray in tongues.
So there would be a difference between a denominational Christian and a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian.
Those without the Spirit walk in faith in their own strength and can only pray with their understanding;
those who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and can pray in tongues walk in faith with power - the power of God
manifest in their lives to overcome all circumstances, and to overcome sin and our carnal selves.

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:6
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? —
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Galatians 3:6

Well obviously that would be true until they looked to the foundation of the tongues doctrine.(iasiahs28) revisited in 1 Corinthians 14:22-23 as law.

Will you search it out toady?

It speaks of those who fall backward slain in the Spirit indicating judgment. They refuse to hear sola scriptura which make this what some call sign gift as a oral tradition a sign against those who will not hear prophecy, the tongue of God .

No such thing as a "sign gift". Spiritual gifts not seen yes...(can't see a spirit) Its the kind of faith we walk by (not seen) . Sign seekers have received their reward. . . confirmed by the sign .

 

[calibob]

So whos John Mc Arthur? I've read the New testament many times and can't recall his name in it at all.

 

[CherieR]

So whos John Mc Arthur? I've read the New testament many times and can't recall his name in it at all.

He is a pastor and author.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

"...which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered"
You either didn't look ,or just made that up .
Paul makes the distinction over and over. Christians walking in the spirit vs christians walking in the flesh.
But even Jesus classified those born again as full of the spirit vs bare essential carnal believers.
The epistles were all written by spirit baptised men,to other spirit baptised men.

Jesus sets the pattern twice,we are without excuse.
1) he NEVER started his ministry until he was baptised in the Holy Ghost.
2) he ordered his church "tarry in Jerusalem till you are endued with power.

About all the mental church can do is spin a fable
"Well the gifts ended and the Holy Spirit and jesus changed jobs"

Ironically it "Works" for them.
They have no power.

Amazing how Jesus knew what we needed for ministry.
Also ironic that it was the Pharisees that were offended by His power.

It was they he invoked the unpardonable sin upon.
They labeled the power of the Holy Spirit as demonic.

Your post distorts the cessationist position, and I believe it's intentional.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today, including speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying in terms of foretelling the future, etcetera.

So, continuationists define "the gifts" as the gifts that charismatics/Pentecostals claim they have..in other words, the above gifts. Is this because they don't acknowledge other gifts that cessationists identify with, including teaching, encouragement, administration, etcetera?

Because, if they claim cessationists don't believe in "the gifts", then apparently they are defining "the gifts" as those handful of gifts, and aren't acknowledging that there are other gifts.

Why don't you believe in "the gifts"?

Notice, folks, that he's claiming cessationists have committed the "unpardonable sin" because they don't hold the same position as him. That's another typical trait of charismatics/Pentecostals....to scare others with the "unpardonable sin".

Actually, the unpardonable sin applied to the Pharisees, who claimed that Jesus was doing certain works such as healings through Satan's power....it says nothing about doubting folks falling on the floor and flopping like a fish for hours, barking like dogs, laughing maniacally, claiming they are healing slightly longer legs while shifting the person's shoe down, claiming to go into morgues and raise the dead, speaking in tongues, etcetera.

So, to repeat my question, why do you claim cessationlsts don't believe in "the gifts" when the topic of discussion relates to false charismatic/Pentecostal behavior? Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts? If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

I think honesty would be one of the characteristics that a Christian would possess.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Where did you get this "basic idea"? I've been around pentecostal/charismatic churches for over 20 years and have never heard that. I don't accept it as a foundational belief for the "two-tier" experience, so so I consider moot the rest of your thesis.

So, do you deny that Pentecostals teach a person must have a "second experience" in order to be an effective Christian?

Here's a Gotquestions article on the topic:

https://www.gotquestions.org/second-blessing.html

It is related to John Wesley's teaching and his claim of sinless perfectionism, but is also connected with empowerment for preaching the gospel and "speaking in tongues" in some circles.

I have talked with several charismatics/Pentecostals, including one that I served with, about this. He wouldn't openly admit that I, as a non-Pentecostal, am spiritually inferior, but his words indirectly betrayed it. I have also heard various charismatics/Pentecostals claim that they were spirit-filled people, inferring that others were not.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well obviously that would be true ... it would seem that you have no been baptised in the Holy Spirit as you do not know of
what this means nor can you pray in tongues.
So there would be a difference between a denominational Christian and a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian.
Those without the Spirit walk in faith in their own strength and can only pray with their understanding;
those who have received the indwelling Holy Spirit and can pray in tongues walk in faith with power - the power of God
manifest in their lives to overcome all circumstances, and to overcome sin and our carnal selves.

Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 4:6
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? —
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Galatians 3:6

I want you to notice that this guy is validating my claims. Thank you, sir.

At least he is honest

Notice how he views non-Pentecostals, charismatics to be inferior in their ability to pray because they can't pray in tongues. He's claiming he's a super-duper Christian with abilities the normal Christian doesn't have.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If this thread shows anything, it shows our experiences differ.
Because their is no definitive teaching on this also gives way to open expression of our various experiences...all of which do not rise to the authoritative level of Scripture.

My experience: Born again in Dec '72. For fifteen months I was slowly drawn to Christ by the dealings of His Spirit (through some visions and dreams and his Word). In Mat '74 completely giving myself to Him (in jail) experienced what I would call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When I left that jail, I would be bold to speak to anyone (and I did) including Hell's Angels about Jesus. I also left that jail full of peace, I had never ever experienced before (not even on reds) and abiding joy.
Having said that, I just don't believe we have enough biblical data to go one way or the other and I would prefer not to get into these type of debates except to encourage each other to seek the Giver of the gifts rather than the gifts themselves.

Your experience sounds like regeneration to me. I acknowledge regeneration. I don't acknowledge the "second blessing", which is what I'm criticizing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Or perhaps just poorly taught (especially newer Christians)??

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today,
[…]
Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts?

Agreed.

I believe the debate centers around, just what is meant by the phrase "But when that which is perfect is come..." (1 Corinthians 13:10a)… differing interpretations of what is meant by that. ["that which is perfect"] (Kinda reminds me of the "what happens when?" questions and/or debates )

If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

Perhaps misinformed? Sometimes ppl get something stuck in their head a certain way, and makes it a bit more of a challenge to "unstuck" it. lol

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

QUOTE "UnitedWithChrist, post: 4008720, member: 287917"]I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years. The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time."

Whoever said this must be confused about the purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness. Luke emphasized the power of the Holy Spirit for spreading the gospel. Paul emphasized the work of the Spirit in sanctification. Many people have tried to interpret Lukes statements in the light of Paul's teachings. If someone is stating that the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts is to make carnal christians more holy they have misunderstood the text. The purpose of this second work of grace was for empowering to witness. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in every believer who puts their faith in Jesus Christ. This is sufficient for holy living and sanctification. A carnal Christian needs to repent and love Jesus more. They need to fear God and realize that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Speaking in tongues was not for sanctification but for witnessing, edification in the church with an interpreter and praying between themselves and God if there was not as Paul stated in 1 cor 14. I don't doubt you may have heard someone say they became holier after their experience but I think they were confused about the purpose of pentecostal experience. I suppose however if one is seeking God for the infilling of the Holy Spirit to be a witness such seeking after God is going to result in ever increasing holiness simply because you are praying for more of His power.

If one claims this "second blessing" is a unique, second experience that empowers them for service, I would totally disagree. And, I believe people become more holy through reading the Bible, praying, fellowshipping, worshipping and exchanging their sinful passions for a passion of Christ.

I guess I could go along with "infilling", but not a second, unique experience. What Acts is describing is a transitional experience in some ways. The same miracles that the Apostles experienced in Jerusalem are replicated amongst various people groups aligning with Acts 1:8. Tongues validated that God was working with them in the same way that he worked with the Jews in Jerusalem, and to make it known that they were to be considered part of the Jerusalem church, not separate entities. This is laid out well in the New Wine book by Dwight Pentecost.