perfect

ed · Jul 5, 2010

Hi charisenexcelcis,
It differs because God made it different. God callled the Word, Son. Yes he is omni.
Rev 2:27 ........just as I have received authority from my Father."
Phil2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Ephesians1:19 "..That power is like the working of His mighty strength which He exerted in Christ when He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenly realms far above all rule and authority.power and dominion, and every title that can be given. not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Jesus Christ is omnipotent, omnipresence, and omniscent because God GAVE this TO Jesus.
love
edwin

charisenexcelcis · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

God does not change in nature. If He gifted Jesus with these things, He in effect gave Jesus Godhood. That would be a change in nature.
The structure of the Godhead is eternal. If Jesus is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent (God's separable attributes) and if He is love, light, and holy (God's inseparable attributes) then He is God.

In the Revelation passage, every knee bows to Jesus. Do we bow our knee to any but God?

AgeofKnowledge · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

"Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek." -Hebrews 5:1-10.

Jesus is both divine and human at the same time. Therefore, in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures. This is called the hypostatic union.

In scripture, Jesus occupied three offices: Prophet, Priest, and King.

To save space, here is an introductory article on that topic: Jesus' Three Offices: Prophet, Priest, and King | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Here's a deeper look: JESUS AS HIGH PRIEST ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK

So we see that in addition to Christ's physical death, literal bodily resurrection, and actual ascension into heaven, He has an indescribably important "present priestly session" in heaven on behalf of believers.

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense: Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1-2).

According to John, Satan is the accuser of God's people (Rev. 12; cf. Job. 1-2): "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down" (Rev. 12:10).

In view of this, Christ-our Advocate-counters by pleading (with His Father) the efficacy of His blood, which was shed for our sins.

It is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need-one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (Heb. 7:17, 22-26).

Because Christ is human as well as divine, He can sympathize with our human frailties: "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the , Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin. (Heb. 414-15).

Since He Himself was tempted in all points that we are, He can, by His present session, overcome these temptations: "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1 Cor. 10:13).

This "way out" is provided by Christ's intercession for us and is His present priestly ministry on our behalf.

Many objects possess more than one property. Though you are but a man and not divine Ed: Jesus is both human and divine and this is evidenced by His life, death, resurection and his present priestly role for the believer to the Father in heaven. Your question has been properly qualified, accurately answered, and adquately explained. There is no conflict.

Would you like to discuss the Trinity next *BIG SMILE*?

Saint · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

Always speak your mind, never do it cruely; that was my intended point. and i did consider what you said, and it reminded me of many people i know that corrupt the Word in order to fit their ideas. and by people i know, i mean me, a few years ago. i used to change the Word all of the time in order to make things fit, perfectly even, in my eyes. but to say that God gave you language, and therefore you fully understand what God means when He says something, is like saying that He gave you knowledge, and therefore you know the mysteries of God. And to say that Son means Son and Father means Father is to restrict God to one form at any one time.

ed said:

Jesus is the High Priest of us all (Hebrews 7:26-28)

greatkraw · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

you are quite close

Jesus was sinless

it was like he had a balance of zero (we all have balances of -x)

by living in consistent obedience he acquired rigteousness and standing with God

to put it another way

Adam was created with a balance of zero

if he had remained obedient he too might have acquired rigteousness and been translated/raptured into a glorious body

we are all now hanging off the righteousness Christ acquired for us throught his obedience

VW · Jul 5, 2010

The belief that Jesus is not God is based upon a false premise. When reading Heb 5:7 and seeing that He had to be made perfect, would seem to suggest that He was not perfect in the beginning. Wrong. The word here for perfect is more likely complete. When Jesus came into the world, it was with the express purpose of becoming joined with us, that is, to become one with us, and us one with Him. This is why what He suffered was to make Him perfect, or complete, because we could not become one with Him unless He laid down His life for us, to be raised for us, so that we could die and be raised in Him. One with Him.

God loves Jesus because He did just that, laid down His life for us.

resurrection33 · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

Hi,
In answer to another thread, I want to say that Jesus was sinless but he was not born perfect.
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus's life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect , he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
On another matter if Jesus is God does that make God a priest in the order of Melchizedek?

love
edwin.

Does anyone know who wrote the book of Hebrews?

greatkraw · Jul 5, 2010

resurrection33 said:

paul dictated it to timothy

resurrection33 · Jul 5, 2010

greatkraw said:

How do you know? Isn’t the style much, much different than Paul’s other letters?

charisenexcelcis · Jul 5, 2010

resurrection33 said:

No one knows for sure. Much speculation revolves around Paul, Stephanus, others. Some believe that the opening greeting was lost, others that it was a co-operative effort.

AgeofKnowledge · Jul 5, 2010

charisenexcelcis said:

Hebrews is anonymous; however, the author is most likely a “he” in light of the masculine ending of the participle diēgoumenon in Hebrews 11:32. The writer was known to the community he addressed (Heb 13:19), but the brief personal notes in Hebrews 13 are not specific enough to reveal his identity.

The author clearly was not Paul, though presumably he moved within the Pauline circle and clearly knew apostles and expected to travel with Timothy (Heb 13:23). He was capable of writing some of the finest Greek in the New Testament.

Among early church traditions we find the author of Hebrews identified as Paul, Barnabas, Luke or Clement of Rome. Contemporary scholars have suggested Apollos, Silvanus, the deacon Philip, Priscilla and Aquila, Jude, Aristion and others.

This variety of opinion shows that the limits of our historical knowledge preclude any certainty regarding the writer’s identity. We are left to conclude that Hebrews was composed by a creative theologian, one well trained in the art of expounding the Greek Scriptures, whose thought world was shaped by, and whose vocabulary, traditions and theological conceptions were indebted to Hellenistic Judaism and the early Hellenistic church, and whom was close to key members of the apostolic early church.

The writer’s educational level may be compared with that of Philo of Alexandria and probably reflects training in a gymnasium or a private rhetorical school. Luke’s description of Apollos as “an eloquent man” (Acts 18:24), a designation associated with formal rhetorical training and so used by Philo, has suggested to many scholars that Apollos was the author of Hebrews.

The writer was an intensely devout man whose subconscious mind was steeped in the cultic categories and language of the Septuagint. He was also a pastoral theologian who shaped early Christian tradition into an urgent appeal to a community in crisis.

He was a gifted preacher and interpreter of salvation, a covenant theologian whose spiritual insight, scriptural exegesis and situational discernment provided encouragement, admonition and pastoral direction. He presents himself as a charismatic leader whose effectiveness did not depend on office or title... something common in the apostolic church before pagan organizational structure influenced church organizational structure following the legitimization of Christianity in the Greco-Roman Empire from Constantine going forward.

serpentslayer · Jul 5, 2010

I for one am totally convinced that Jesus was GOD in the flesh; but, because HE was in
flesh, in which dwelleth sin (ROM), HE could not be totally perfect. BUt the flesh can
never be made perfect, and this is the reason flesh and blood cannot enter into
Heaven. Even Jesus told one man not to call him good, because HE too was in flesh.
People make the mistake of thinking that GOD is HIS NAME, but 'GOD' is just HIS
title, same as O'bama is President. And GOD is not a thing that one can point to and
say this is GOD because GOD is in all things (HIS breath and Spirit). We must
remember that GOD at one time took on an image, but the image still was not all of
GOD, but HE did have all the power and authority of GOD. ANd this image was the
basis for the image of ADam. SO, just as the LORD GOD was GOD in all authority (Is43)
HE was not all that GOD IS. THE same can be said of Jesus. Is 9:6 clearly says that the
'child', who is Jesus, is also the Almighty God and Everlasting Father.

Jesus was GOD in the flesh; but, because he took on the flesh and its limitations, all HE
learned about himself and HIS FATHER was learned by the Scriptures but confirmed by
the Spirit, the exact same way we learn about HIM. So, even though we may walk
perfect on this earth according to the SPIRIT and by HIS GUIDANCE, we are still
surrounded by the evil flesh of or bodies, and therefore cannot stand perfect. BUt
this is the PRIZE, the mark of perfection, when we are tuly born again of the Spirit
in the Heaven come, at the ressurrection.

P.S.
In the Holy City it is written that GOD's Glory will be the LIGHT of it, but the LIGHT will
eminate from JESUS (Rev21:23); so, where is the Father?

loveschild · Jul 5, 2010

Hi Ed
God bless you also. Think of the word perfected as made stronger and stronger. As the same thing goes for us. We get stronger and stronger the more and the more bad things we get through in this life.

The more we go through with out falling down and crying learning that does us no good but if we trust in God and know that he will fight the battles for us we are getting perfected. The fire being refined time and time and again. We are not just to be clay cups we are to be golden cups.

tommy71342 · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

Hi Saint,
Thank you for the straightforward post. I do not know what you really believe until you tell me however if I do not speak what I believe then I am not being true to myself or to you. That you were upset means that you considered the words I wrote. Thank you for that.
You are responsible for what you believe as I am for what I believe. While I agree with this statement on the face of it, when taken in context with the Word of God we must consider a deeper Truth. I am not the judge of anyone, however Christ is our Judge and He will base that Judgment on both His Word and our actions. (Action is belief put in motion.) When Jesus uses His Word to judge us it will not be on what we believed His Word meant, He will judge us based on what He said. In other words, believing that Jesus is not God does not change that Jesus says that He is God every time He says "I am."
To me God gave us a language to communicate. To me Son means son and Father means Father. I had to comment on these two lines. God did give us a language to communicate with Him. However, the English language is vastly insufficient to convey what God is saying in His Word. Take the English word "love", in the original Greek we have "agape", "philo", "eros", etc. all used throughout the Bible to convey different types of love, but all translated into one word. Most people love their wives and their shoes with the same word. So your understanding of the Father and Son are limited, not that the Father and Son are limited to your understanding.
Yes the son has the seed of the Father but the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son or we would have different words.
To me it is that simple
love
edwin

"And I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32

greatkraw · Jul 5, 2010

Authorised Version

ed · Jul 5, 2010

charisenexcelcis said:

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for continuing and being civil. I surely appreciate your tolerant attitude. When I read your post I read that you yourself don't believe they are one because you say, "If He gifted Jesus" I ask you does God gift to God and if so why? Also you say, God gave Jesus Godhood. Again and this totally agrees with Scripture, that God (Father) is the one who is subject of the doing, etc eg sending giving annointing. Jesus doesnt send God nor give to God or annoint God. But God is doing these things and more to Jesus. And you quote this to me. You say if Jesus is these things then he is God. I agree, because God calls Jesus god.And why not as Jesus is before all things and in Jesus all things live and Jesus is the beginning and the end ( so that all creation is contained within Jesus) but note God is from everlasting to everlasting.
God also says He is Jesus's God.

Consider this please. The nature of God. God works through not "hands on" Why? Because God is Holy. This means that God Himself is separated-even from His creation which is being reconciled back to God through His Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
God made the world through His Son
God worked through Pharoah.
God worked through Moses,through the Red Sea. (How many ways could God have rescued His people)
floods droughts, locus kings queens peoples and even a donkey.

The very nature of God tells us that Jesus Christ is not God but His Son.
God's whole redemptive plan is Jesus Christ. We couldn't come up close because of sin and we still sin but God sees Jesus Christ. God does not see Himself. Our life in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, of God before the world was made, saves us.
Here is another piece of the puzzle. The Ten Commandments. in particular maybe the second about making an idol (image). Are there any Christian images of God in the world. Are there any Christian images of Jesus Christ in the world. To me this is the work of the Holy Spirit giving us proof. Often in my walk when I am surrounded by confusion, I stop and take a deep breath and say, Ok ed, what has happened. Then by looking at what happened it gives me understanding. In this case no images of God but zillions of images of Jesus Christ. I know 100% that Jesus "keeps" me. Please do not construe from this that I am saying I have superior knowledge or anything. maybe I should use the word "protects"
Has anyone seen the face of God and lived. Has anyone seen the face of Jesus Christ? Has God changed? There are scores of issues in Scripture that make it so very plain. And again I repeat the most obvious one. Son is son and Father is Father. God could not lie.
love
edwin

ed · Jul 5, 2010

tommy71342 said:

Hi tommy,
Thank you for your efforts and adding to this thread. To me it is a very large subject and wisdom is like gold, being wherever it is found.
love
edwin.

charisenexcelcis · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

Hi charisenexcelcis,
Thanks for continuing and being civil. I surely appreciate your tolerant attitude. When I read your post I read that you yourself don't believe they are one because you say, "If He gifted Jesus"
Jesus was God from all eternity, therefore the structure is ontological, the Father did not "gift" Godhood to Jesus.
I ask you does God gift to God and if so why? Also you say, God gave Jesus Godhood. Again and this totally agrees with Scripture, that God (Father) is the one who is subject of the doing, etc eg sending giving annointing. Jesus doesnt send God nor give to God or annoint God. But God is doing these things and more to Jesus.
The is an eternal structure that is of functionality but not inequality.
And you quote this to me. You say if Jesus is these things then he is God. I agree, because God calls Jesus god.And why not as Jesus is before all things and in Jesus all things live and Jesus is the beginning and the end ( so that all creation is contained within Jesus) but note God is from everlasting to everlasting.
It says of the Father, that He is the beginning and the end, everlasting to everlating is wrapped up in that. Jesus is also the beginning and the end, everlasting to everlasting.
God also says He is Jesus's God.
A structural truth.

Consider this please. The nature of God. God works through not "hands on"
But God does work "hands on". One of the great differences between our faith and the many of the false faiths that are out there--our God is both transcendent and imminent.
Why? Because God is Holy. This means that God Himself is separated-even from His creation
Holiness means to set apart for a purpose. That doesn't require that He be hands off.
which is being reconciled back to God through His Son, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
God made the world through His Son
God worked through Pharoah.
God worked through Moses,through the Red Sea. (How many ways could God have rescued His people)
floods droughts, locus kings queens peoples and even a donkey.

The very nature of God tells us that Jesus Christ is not God but His Son.
I disagree. The very nature of God is that He be in eternal fellowship.
God's whole redemptive plan is Jesus Christ. We couldn't come up close because of sin and we still sin but God sees Jesus Christ. God does not see Himself. Our life in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, of God before the world was made, saves us.
Here is another piece of the puzzle. The Ten Commandments. in particular maybe the second about making an idol (image). Are there any Christian images of God in the world. Are there any Christian images of Jesus Christ in the world. To me this is the work of the Holy Spirit giving us proof. Often in my walk when I am surrounded by confusion, I stop and take a deep breath and say, Ok ed, what has happened. Then by looking at what happened it gives me understanding. In this case no images of God but zillions of images of Jesus Christ. I know 100% that Jesus "keeps" me. Please do not construe from this that I am saying I have superior knowledge or anything. maybe I should use the word "protects"
I think the bigger issue would be the first, that there would be no other gods. If God made Jesus a god, that would be against His nature, but it the God who said, no other gods, is the Triune God, then there is no discrepency of nature.
Has anyone seen the face of God and lived. Has anyone seen the face of Jesus Christ? Has God changed? There are scores of issues in Scripture that make it so very plain. And again I repeat the most obvious one. Son is son and Father is Father. God could not lie.
To call God, "Father" is no more problem then to call God, "Son". Will we ever see Jesus in unvieled glory? No, we don't.
love
edwin

If you ever feel that this is a fruitless conversation, let me know. I am willing to discuss it for as long as you would like.

AgeofKnowledge · Jul 5, 2010

Ed said "The very nature of God tells us that Jesus Christ is not God but His Son."

This is a false assertion.

THE DEFINITION OF GOD'S UNITY:

"Unity" literally means "oneness." God is one Being, in contrast to
many beings. There is one and only one God (monotheism) as opposed to
many gods (polytheism).

There are three related words that should be distinguished:

(1) Unity-There are not two or more gods.
(2) Simplicity-There are not two or more parts in God.

(3) Triunity-There are three persons in the one God.

The Scriptures affirm God's absolute unity from the beginning to the very end. The oneness of the Godhead is one of the most
fundamental teachings of Scripture. Topical evidences include the theological basis for God's unity and the historical basis for God's unity.
With that in mind, we progress into;

THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE TRINITY:

The doctrine of the Trinity is based on two basic biblical teachings:

(1) There is one and only one God. The biblical, theological, and historical evidence for God's absolute
oneness has been established in scripture and history.

(2) There are three distinct persons who are God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Three Different Persons Are God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In addition to declaring God to be one in nature or essence, the scriptures affirm that there are three distinct persons who are God. All are called God, and all have the essential characteristics of a person. Personhood is traditionally understood as one who has intellect, feelings, and will. All three of these characteristics are attributed to all three members of the Trinity in Scripture. Essentially, personhood refers to an "I," a "who," or a subject. Each "I" in the Trinity possesses (by virtue of its one common nature) the power to think, feel, and choose. Personhood itself is its I-ness or who-ness.

Since we are refuting the false assertion that Jesus Christ is not God, let's deal with that.

That Christ is God is affirmed in many passages and in many ways, both directly and indirectly. Yahweh is only used to refer to the one true God. No other person or thing was to be worshiped or served (Ex. 20:5), and His name and glory were not to be given to another. Jesus prayed, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began" (John 17:5)-this is an obvious claim for Christ's deity, for Jehovah of the Old Testament said, "My glory will I not give to another" (Isa. 42:8 NKJV). Jesus also declared, "I am the First and the Last" (Rev. l:l7)-precisely the words used by Jehovah in Isaiah 44:6. He said, "I am the good shepherd," (John 10:11), and the Old Testament said, "Jehovah is my shepherd" (Ps. 23:l ASV). Further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all men (John 5:27; Matt. 25:31), and Joel quotes Jehovah as saying, "There I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). Likewise, Jesus spoke of Himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:lf.) while the Old Testament identifies Jehovah in this way (Isa. 62:5; Hosea 2:16). While the psalmist declares, "Jehovah is my light" (Ps. 27:l ASVJ) Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Perhaps the strongest claim Jesus made to be Jehovah is in John 8:12 where He says, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement claims not only existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews around Jesus clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming (cf. John 10:31-33). The same claim is also made in Mark 14:62 and John 18:5-6.

Jesus professed deity in other ways, one of which was by claiming for himself the perogatives of God such as forgiving sin (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded with "Who can forgive but God alone?" afterwards. So to prove that His claim was not an empty boast, He healed the man, offering direct proof that what He had said about forgiving sins was true also. Jesus claimed, due only to God, the power to raise and judge the dead; boldly assumed for Himself powers that only God has; and claimed that he should be be honored as God.

Jesus Claimed to Be Messiah-God. The Old Testament teaches that the coming Messiah would be God Himself, so when Jesus claimed to be that Messiah, He was also claiming to be God. Jesus Claimed to Be God by Accepting Worship. The Old Testament forbids worshiping anyone other than God (Ex. 20:l-5; Deut. 5:6-9). The New Testament agrees, showing that men refused worship (Acts 14:13-15), as did angels (Rev. 22:8-9). But Jesus accepted worship on numerous occasions, revealing that He claimed to be God.

Jesus Claimed to Have Equal Authority With God. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:18-19).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by Requesting Prayer in His Name. Jesus not only asked people to believe in Him and obey His commandments, but He also asked them to pray in His name: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name...You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).

Jesus Claimed to Be God by His Use of Parables. Jesus' Disciples Acknowledged His Claim to Be God. Etc... etc... etc...
All members of the Trinity are equal in essence, but they do not have the same roles. In brief, the Father is the Planner, the Son is the Accomplisher, and the Holy Spirit is the Applier of salvation to believers.

Your error Ed is in failing to comprehend what scripture plainly states: that God has one and only one essence (nature) and that it is not contradictory to have three persons in one essence.

Saint · Jul 5, 2010

ed said:

let me ask you something very important, when i said that God can be more than one thing at more than one time, did you not pay attention. You argue that if you can see Jesus, but can't see God, then God isn't Jesus. Did God not come down as a dove for everyone to see? did adam and eve not see God face to face on a daily basis, even a few minutes after they sinned (obviously pointing out that God is powerful enough to show His face), does God not have the power to come to Earth in a form that peope can see? if not, then His power is limited by itself.

and yes, there are paintings of Jesus from what the painters thought that He looked like, there are also paintings of God from what the painters thought that He looked like.

and what do you mean God isn't hands on? God WROTE the ten commandments. twice. God separated an entire sea. more than once. God made it rain for 40 days. God destroyed sodom and gamora. God even showed His back to Moses (probably where you're refering to earlier). God struck someone down, actually a lot of people down. God blinded an entire army. God sent down an entire army of chariots. and did God not come down and stand with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abindigo in the burning furnace? and you admit that God talked to and worked through a lot of people, which contradicts your statement that God is separated from His creation.

and again, just because you don't understand why God acts, doesn't mean He doesn't do that act. You don't understand why God would give Himself something. I don't understand why He would force people who don't marry the widowed wives of their dead brother, or get their sandle stolen, and then be called the sandle-less one. but that doesn't mean that He didn't do it, now does it? (on a personal note, that's one of my favorite stories)

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