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E

ed

Guest
#61
Jesus is not the Father, nevertheless He is God. Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are wanting to give an inferior place to Jesus. Which leads me to the question, what place do you hold the Holy Spirit? Is He inferior also?

I cannot hold Jesus in a position which is not deity. While He is not above the Father, He is still God, at least in my heart. I know that the Father is the head of the Godhead, while Jesus is the Christ of the Godhead, which leaves the Spirit as the spirit of the Godhead. Maybe we cannot understand these things perfectly, seeing how limited we are in our abilites.
Hi VW,
I think I have answered some of this post before but not all of it. I can not comprehend God, but I know He Is. I know He can speak and the name of His Son is Word and the Word became flesh in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ only ever spoke God's Word. He fully represented God as if (forgive me) Jesus were God's mouth. As you are more than your word than God is more than His Word. Jesus (The Word) is the heir and has all the rights of the first Son. He is at the right hand of the Father. God wants to honour Jesus Christ because of his obedience and has put all authority in that name. So we can ask in that name, Jesus Christ and receive. Our petition is to God in the name of Jesus Christ.
If I have not answered this question fully, please ask further.
The question of the Holy Spirit.
This is very difficult. I am still growing here but this is my current position. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. There is only one Spirit, the Spirit of God.
Mark 3:28 (Jesus speaking) I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, he is guilty of an eternal sin."
I often wonder why such protection is given to the beautiful Holy Spirit. I think this is because the beautiful Holy Spirit is vulnerable. I think that the Holy Spirit acts on faith. I think that is why Satan thinks he can win. Jesus said if you have faith you can toss that mountain into the sea etc etc. But Jesus did not do that, and I suppose Jesus did not do it because it was not the will of God. I see the Holy Spirit as the doer of these acts of faith. Frankly I am somewhat scared of misusing (I count misusing as blaspheming) the Holy Spirit. I also suppose the protection for us is not really knowing beforehand what we are doing. So someone who uses their faith to win a tennis game is not held guilty because of their complete lack of understanding. But if my faith grew to a level to activate the Holy Spiirt on demand then my actions would be accountable. Then I would have to act only according to God's will.
love
edwin.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#62
I am still not sure just what place Jesus holds in your mind, in His relationship to God. Oh, I understand about His being the Word, but I think maybe a little something is missing in your thoughts. When we speak of God's word, (and this is why I am so adamant about the distinction between the inspired word, that is, scripture not being Jesus. I believe that many have never made this distinction in their hearts and minds, and therefore cannot have a true vision of just who and what Jesus is. (Let me say here that what you say about the Spirit is as good as any I have heard.) can I just say that to me Jesus is much more of God than His spoken word, because it is through Jesus that everything which has been made is made, in fact everything has it's existence because of and through Him, and everything that has been made exists in Jesus. Not just the things which have life, but everything. And while God has given Jesus to have preeminence in everything, in fact this happened before creation begin. In other words, Jesus, like the Father and the Spirit, are not created beings. They are the only ones who are without beginning or end. The only reasoned will endure into eternity is because of our being in Jesus.

Very interesting discussion.
Thank you with blessings in His name,
Vic

ps I am always reminded why our sins are forgiven. It is for the sake of Jesus' name.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#63
Hi Saint,
Thank you for continuing. I feel I answered this question when I answered a post from VW. It describes the relationship between words and self and the Word and God the Father. Please come back to me if this does not answer your questions. I believe the Begotton Son is not God but God's Word.
love
edwin.
by this logic, Jesus could have said,"I am the Father" and you could say that He was simply saying that He, like everyones word, defines God, the speaker. Just pointing out that your statements allow you to loop any other statement back to an original position, regardless of what's been said.

Hi Saint,
I love your passion. oops I have already answered this. I was trying to answer the other portion of this post which is a"quote" Hopefully I can get to it later.
love
edwin
I must thank you for keeping this civil. Usually when there are disputes it leads to name-calling, fighting, and YELLING, which i find to be unhelpful in all sences. and we've all made it to page 4 without such indignities, so thank you. And i look forward to hearing your response soon.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#64
This is a revision of the following post, because as I made this post on my phone, I could not review, nor could I edit it later. It is not clear because of typos.

Thanks,
vic

I am still not sure just what place Jesus holds in your mind, in His relationship to God. Oh, I understand about His being the Word, but I think maybe a little something is missing in your thoughts. When we speak of God's word, (and this is why I am so adamant about the distinction between the inspired word, that is, scripture not being Jesus.) I believe that many have never made this distinction in their hearts and minds, and therefore cannot have a true vision of just who and what Jesus is. (Let me say here that what you say about the Spirit is as good as any I have heard.) Can I just say that to me Jesus is much more of God than His spoken word, because it is through Jesus that everything which has been made is made, in fact everything has it's existence because of and through Him, and everything that has been made exists in Jesus. Not just the things which have life, but everything. And while God has given Jesus to have preeminence in everything, in fact this happened before creation begin. In other words, Jesus, like the Father and the Spirit, are not created beings. They are the only ones who are without beginning or end. The only reason we will endure into eternity is because of our being in Jesus.

Very interesting discussion.
Thank you with blessings in His name,
Vic

ps I am always reminded why our sins are forgiven. It is for the sake of Jesus' name.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#65
No,Jesus is not my God. He is my Lord and My Saviour, my Redeemer, my Teacher, my Comfort and in Jesus Christ I have eternal life. How blessed I am that my Holy Almighty God gave Jesus Christ for me that I may live, eternally. Without Jesus Christ, The Word, I could not draw near to God but because I believe in Jesus Christ I am in obedience to my Father. The Son who pleased the Father is my path to God.
love
edwin.
Yes, Edwin, I understand what the cross means to you and that the Blood of Jesus is as effective as cleaning your soul as purging mine.

What I do not understand is what biblical foundation do you have to deny, oppose, reject, disaprove the diety of Jesus [whatever it is holding you back]?

Do you actually believe that the saints who do believe Jesus is their God are in disobedience to your Father? Or are we talking about 2 different fathers here? If so, there's my answer.

...I'm not mad at you, not crossed... ...just want to understand where the glitch is. That's all. Take care.
 
E

ed

Guest
#66
I am still not sure just what place Jesus holds in your mind, in His relationship to God. Oh, I understand about His being the Word, but I think maybe a little something is missing in your thoughts. When we speak of God's word, (and this is why I am so adamant about the distinction between the inspired word, that is, scripture not being Jesus. I believe that many have never made this distinction in their hearts and minds, and therefore cannot have a true vision of just who and what Jesus is. (Let me say here that what you say about the Spirit is as good as any I have heard.) can I just say that to me Jesus is much more of God than His spoken word, because it is through Jesus that everything which has been made is made, in fact everything has it's existence because of and through Him, and everything that has been made exists in Jesus. Not just the things which have life, but everything. And while God has given Jesus to have preeminence in everything, in fact this happened before creation begin. In other words, Jesus, like the Father and the Spirit, are not created beings. They are the only ones who are without beginning or end. The only reasoned will endure into eternity is because of our being in Jesus.

Very interesting discussion.
Thank you with blessings in His name,
Vic

ps I am always reminded why our sins are forgiven. It is for the sake of Jesus' name.
Hi VW,
There is only a very small difference in our thinking. I see God from everlasting to everlasting. I see God's Holy Spirit in the same context. I see Jesus, the Only Begotton Son, the Word from beginning to the end. Now this is not limited as in a timeline but also in creation. God could not restore creation to Himself because of His abhorrence of evil. That is the work given to Jesus and it is in Jesus that the whole of creation is reconciled to God. Jesus holds and contains creation. I do not see Jesus Christ as a human being but as a fully human manifestation of God's Word.
I do see Jesus as less than God. Scripture says that Jesus says God is greater. Jesus says only God knows the times. Jesus says to pray to God,( in Jesus name because God wants to honour that name) Scripture says that GOd is the head of Jesus,Jesus is the head of man and man the head of woman. I see Jesus at the right hand of God. I see Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek. I only ever see in scripture where God the Father does the directing and both Jesus and the Holy Spirit do the obeying. God sends Jesus. God annoints Jesus etc etc etc time aftertime.
I do see God the Father calling Jesus God, but immediately says and your God making God the Father the God of Jesus. I see Jesus as an heir. To me the differences are many many fold. But these are some that spring immediately to mind.
If you have any more questions regarding how I view God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit please persevere with me because this for me is a learning experience.
love
edwin.
oh PS So often in the bible we see God calling people out of a place because the curse is on the ground not on man so God is continually warning man of His impending destruction of some real estate. In the flood, the whole earth, Sodom etc, Jerusalem etc. Now I see God has made Jesus a curse so the punishment landed on Jesus, but at the same time the earth itself is coming to the tribulation so now we have God through Jesus calling us to come out of the earth and into the kingdom of God which is living in Jesus. God knows man can not save himself so God has taken this saving onto Himself and Jesus is His plan. We just have to obey and seek shelter in Jesus with the impending doom.
 
E

ed

Guest
#67
by this logic, Jesus could have said,"I am the Father" and you could say that He was simply saying that He, like everyones word, defines God, the speaker. Just pointing out that your statements allow you to loop any other statement back to an original position, regardless of what's been said.



I must thank you for keeping this civil. Usually when there are disputes it leads to name-calling, fighting, and YELLING, which i find to be unhelpful in all sences. and we've all made it to page 4 without such indignities, so thank you. And i look forward to hearing your response soon.
Hi Saint,
I had not thought of the loop situation you speak of but yes it is so. I do not follow the phrase ( like everyones word) I know Jesus has spoken to me and through me but then so have other spirits. But Jesus watches me closely and protects me. Of course I am riddled with mistakes and say and believe incorrectly but He keeps on paring away at me and taking off more and more of my rough edges but Jesus was completley different. Jesus only ever spoke God's words. IT was the same as if God was walking on this earth. But it was His Son. I do not put any limits on a Son. But God called the Word who manifested into Jesus His Son and I say "Yes " oh Holy Father, I believe you. Your Word is your Son, and Jesus Chirst is the body you prepared for him.
love
edwin.
Thank you for the kind words about the tenor of the thread. It takes as many as are here for this to happen. I thank you and all who read this for the respect shown to the subject.
 
E

ed

Guest
#68
Yes, Edwin, I understand what the cross means to you and that the Blood of Jesus is as effective as cleaning your soul as purging mine.

What I do not understand is what biblical foundation do you have to deny, oppose, reject, disaprove the diety of Jesus [whatever it is holding you back]?

Do you actually believe that the saints who do believe Jesus is their God are in disobedience to your Father? Or are we talking about 2 different fathers here? If so, there's my answer.

...I'm not mad at you, not crossed... ...just want to understand where the glitch is. That's all. Take care.
Hi BananaPie,
I am so pleased that you feel confident of bringing your thoughts forward. I would encourage others in this post to help me explain my position as I feel sure that maybe you can do a better job of this than I can. I feel I have explained this very fully. Maybe there is one part that needs further explanation and that is my explaining my FEAR for the Saints.
Without detail. Many, maybe the majority of Christians believe that God Himself came down and became flesh. This I disagree with. I believe the Word ( God's Son) became flesh. If God wants to call His Holy Word ,Son, I accept this completely.
To me this seems extremely clear. The bible calls Jesus Chirst ( Fathered by the Holy Spirit) Son and Jesus Christ calls Almighty God Father. I simply believe this.
I don't understand why there is this vast number insisting that God the Father came in the flesh. Why belittle Jesus Christ the begotton Son of God. The firstborn over all creation.
My conclusion is that this must be spiritual work, work by Satan, to deceive people maybe back in the days soon after Paul. Really I dont know. So for centuries people have been taught even from a very young age to believe that it is God and not the Son who manifested.
My further reasoning then is if Satan is behind this then why. Why woud this deception be so very important to Satan. It has to be a BIG reason.And then came that terrifying thought. Oh No. the people who have the belief that God Himself was manifested do not have the Son. They have God manifested in a human body and a Son left in heaven. For the saints to have redemption they must believe in the Son. Otherwise the teaching is still back in old testament times, people trying to come close to God by their own efforts, trapped in law. Jesus Chirst is the manifestation of the Son.
Hebrews 10:5-7 (echoes Psalms 40:6-8) Therefore when Christ came into the world, he said," Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, But a body you prepared for me, with burnt offerings and sin offerings , you were not pleased.Then I said,"Here I am- it is written about me in the scroll- I have come to do your will O God." NIV bible
Can you see my cause for fear. You don't REALLY believe in the Son but in God who is manifested in the body prepared. You call the body Jesus the Son but this is not what you fully believe. You believe the flesh ONLY is the Son of God. My belief is that the Son (the Word) manifested into the flesh and carried his Sonship with him.
Is this the matter you wanted me to clarify.
If it is I hope I have made my fears adequately understood.
Please tell me how you view these fears of mine.
love
edwin.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#69
While Jesus is subject to the Father, in truth the Father does not consider Him to be subservient, and neither does Jesus Himself. And if the truth be known, He is subservient to the Father in example to us.
 
E

ed

Guest
#70
While Jesus is subject to the Father, in truth the Father does not consider Him to be subservient, and neither does Jesus Himself. And if the truth be known, He is subservient to the Father in example to us.
Hi VW,
This is difficult for me to reply to. I read in your post that you, like me , see two, a Son and a Father. Yes they are of one heart and one mind, as we also will need to be and they live in each other. The kindgom of God is not a democracy where every one gets a vote. We have to be of one mind.
1 Corinthians15:28 " When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. I think Jesus is in obedience to His Father because he is a good Son. I did not like the word, subservient. I am not a scholar by any means but there are connotations to it that I wouldn't ascribe to the relationship between a Father and a Son. obedience love respect an eagerness to comply to please and uphold. Yeah this is my dad. I want to be exactly like Him.
When you read your post VW can you see that it could have been written by me.
love
edwin
 
T

tommy71342

Guest
#71
Hi BananaPie,
No,Jesus is not my God. He is my Lord and My Saviour, my Redeemer, my Teacher, my Comfort and in Jesus Christ I have eternal life. How blessed I am that my Holy Almighty God gave Jesus Christ for me that I may live, eternally. Without Jesus Christ, The Word, I could not draw near to God but because I believe in Jesus Christ I am in obedience to my Father. The Son who pleased the Father is my path to God.
love
edwin.
Ed,

Jesus' Deity is answered by Jesus Himself in Matthew. While Jesus was in the desert being tempted, Satan told Him to cast Himself down and the angels, who were given charge over Him would protect Him. Jesus answered, "
It is also written, 'Do not test the Lord your God'" Matt. 4:7, (HCSB) Why would Jesus answer this way? Was Jesus simply quoting scripture or was He actually giving Satan a command? If Jesus was commanding Satan, how could a simple man do that?

To answer all of these questions we need to look at other Scripture. For instance, when Jesus healed the paralyzed man He says,
“Have courage, son, your sins are forgiven.” Matt 9:2 (HCSB) Immediately the Jews that were around Him understood that He was taking upon Himself authority that was reserved for God. Now that is twice in Matthew that Jesus took upon Himself attributes reserved for God. He commanded Satan and He forgave sins. Are there others? Let's look further.

Another instance in Matthew was in the chapter before. Jesus and the disciples got into a boat and a violent storm came up. Jesus commanded the wind and waves to cease and immediately they did. Jesus has command of creation, another attribute of God.

Jesus also made statements on several occasions in which He proclaimed Himself to be God, not the Son of God, although He also used that phrase on several occasions. Whenever He used the phrase "I AM", He was proclaiming Himself to be God. He used it on a number of occasions when describing Himself, such as saying, "
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:6 (KJV).

Another way that Jesus claims that He is God is when the priests and scribes declare that the disciples are violating the Law by working on the Sabbath by picking grain and eating it while they were walking. Jesus' reply reminds them that David, a man after God's own heart, did the same by eating the show bread reserved for the priests by the Law, but they were innocent in their actions. He finishes with a very strong statement, "But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here! 7 If you had known what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Matt 12:6-8 (HCSB)

In all of these (and this is just the book of Matthew) Jesus claims to be God, either by action or word. If you believe that Jesus was sinless then you believe He didn't tell lies. If He didn't tell lies, then His statements about being God MUST be true. If He spoke Truth, then you must accept His Word, not any argument that I or any other can give. Please accept this with all love. As a Christian I love you and want only that you should come to the knowledge of the Truth

With Love, Tommy






 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#72
Hi VW,
This is difficult for me to reply to. I read in your post that you, like me , see two, a Son and a Father. Yes they are of one heart and one mind, as we also will need to be and they live in each other. The kindgom of God is not a democracy where every one gets a vote. We have to be of one mind.
1 Corinthians15:28 " When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. I think Jesus is in obedience to His Father because he is a good Son. I did not like the word, subservient. I am not a scholar by any means but there are connotations to it that I wouldn't ascribe to the relationship between a Father and a Son. obedience love respect an eagerness to comply to please and uphold. Yeah this is my dad. I want to be exactly like Him.
When you read your post VW can you see that it could have been written by me.
love
edwin
Subservient is not a word I would have chosen either, but it is the word that came to me from the Spirit. Jesus was teaching, (actually, I think of it as speaking life into the world, much more than teaching,) when He was explaining about His sheep. He talked about the good shepherd, and the wolf in sheep's clothing, and good pasture and so forth. Then He started talking about His laying down His life, and what the reality of this act is. He said that no one takes His life from Him, but that He lays it down willingly, to take it up again. It took me a while to understand this, but God gave Him the authority to lay His life down and to take it up again. But what has always struck me dumb with awe is what He says before this.

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative.


Yes, Jesus is and was and always will be obedient, and it is in His obedience that we have our life, and even our obedience. But see, Jesus chose to serve us, to be subservient to His Father to serve us, even in this way.

I think of that day, when we will become the house of God, the holy city Jerusalem, that comes down out of heaven from God, in which the throne of God will be forever, and in which God will live forever, along with the Son and the Spirit and the tree of life. And I read from what John saw in that place, And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him; and they shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever.


So, I don't know, there are not enough words to describe Jesus, nor His Father, not even the Spirit. I just know that what I say to one I am saying to them all, they all hear equally and at the same instant. And I know that whatever I ask of one I am asking of them all. And I know that the love of God that I walk in is equally from them all.

I am not even sure that our present minds are able to comprehend just what majesty and power and glory is theirs. I know that the mystery is great.

Hey, this is great,

Blessings in His love,
vic
 
S

Saint

Guest
#73
actually, i was about to say the same thing that tommy said about the Way, Truth and Life, except i was going to include that God is the Life as well, and He is also Truth. and ed, don't worry about those fears, because all we have to do in order to be saved is proclaim that Jesus is Lord (according to Romans 10:9) but you haven't answered the question that you said you would answer, are you spending time on the answer? because if so, i am in no way trying to rush you.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#74
Dear Edwin:

Yes, thank you for your patience; I understand what you are believing.

As I was reading along your post, I remembered, "porque en él habita corporalmente toda la plenitud de la Deidad." (This is Spanish for Colossians 2:9). In Spanish there is no word for "godhead" as it was translated in the KJV version. Instead, it was translated as "Deidad" (Deity).

In the 1924 Italian revision of the 1604 version, the verse also reads "Deita" (Deity).
In the 1917 Swedish revision of the 1541 version, the verse also reads "gudomens" (Deity).
Lastly, I looked it up in the 405 AD Latin Vulgate version, the verse reads "divinitatis" (divinity).

The point is, what's the whole truth since Jesus came?
How does "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" binds to "the fullness of Deity"?
a) irrelevant
b) mistranslation
c) ill-interpretation, all the other languages don't have a word for "godhead"
d) The Bible contradicts itself
e) The Word is Jesus and Jesus is God

Jesus is also referred to as Lion of Judah, so would it be heresy to teach others that Jesus is the Son of Man and also a lion as in the actual feline?

Yes, I promised I wouldn't tire the reader.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#75
but before you answer my other questions, ed, i would like to help you with your understanding with something i found: Collossians 1:15-17- He is the image of the invisible God (so yes, Jesus is the visible form of God), the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him(something that Genesis says that God did). 17 He is before all things (if God and Jesus are separate entities, that means this verse is telling us that Jesus is before God, making Jesus higher than the Father), and in him all things hold together.
 
E

ed

Guest
#76
Ed,

Jesus' Deity is answered by Jesus Himself in Matthew. While Jesus was in the desert being tempted, Satan told Him to cast Himself down and the angels, who were given charge over Him would protect Him. Jesus answered, "
It is also written, 'Do not test the Lord your God'" Matt. 4:7, (HCSB) Why would Jesus answer this way? Was Jesus simply quoting scripture or was He actually giving Satan a command? If Jesus was commanding Satan, how could a simple man do that?

To answer all of these questions we need to look at other Scripture. For instance, when Jesus healed the paralyzed man He says,
“Have courage, son, your sins are forgiven.” Matt 9:2 (HCSB) Immediately the Jews that were around Him understood that He was taking upon Himself authority that was reserved for God. Now that is twice in Matthew that Jesus took upon Himself attributes reserved for God. He commanded Satan and He forgave sins. Are there others? Let's look further.

Another instance in Matthew was in the chapter before. Jesus and the disciples got into a boat and a violent storm came up. Jesus commanded the wind and waves to cease and immediately they did. Jesus has command of creation, another attribute of God.

Jesus also made statements on several occasions in which He proclaimed Himself to be God, not the Son of God, although He also used that phrase on several occasions. Whenever He used the phrase "I AM", He was proclaiming Himself to be God. He used it on a number of occasions when describing Himself, such as saying, "
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. John 14:6 (KJV).

Another way that Jesus claims that He is God is when the priests and scribes declare that the disciples are violating the Law by working on the Sabbath by picking grain and eating it while they were walking. Jesus' reply reminds them that David, a man after God's own heart, did the same by eating the show bread reserved for the priests by the Law, but they were innocent in their actions. He finishes with a very strong statement, "But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here! 7 If you had known what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” Matt 12:6-8 (HCSB)

In all of these (and this is just the book of Matthew) Jesus claims to be God, either by action or word. If you believe that Jesus was sinless then you believe He didn't tell lies. If He didn't tell lies, then His statements about being God MUST be true. If He spoke Truth, then you must accept His Word, not any argument that I or any other can give. Please accept this with all love. As a Christian I love you and want only that you should come to the knowledge of the Truth

With Love, Tommy






Hi Tommy,
Thank you for joining in this thread and for your sincere help. I feel I have answered many of your concerns in previous posts. Maybe you have not had time to read them. If you have not read them or after reading them still have questions or advice for me please ask me again.
love
edwin.
 
E

ed

Guest
#77
Subservient is not a word I would have chosen either, but it is the word that came to me from the Spirit. Jesus was teaching, (actually, I think of it as speaking life into the world, much more than teaching,) when He was explaining about His sheep. He talked about the good shepherd, and the wolf in sheep's clothing, and good pasture and so forth. Then He started talking about His laying down His life, and what the reality of this act is. He said that no one takes His life from Him, but that He lays it down willingly, to take it up again. It took me a while to understand this, but God gave Him the authority to lay His life down and to take it up again. But what has always struck me dumb with awe is what He says before this.

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative.


Yes, Jesus is and was and always will be obedient, and it is in His obedience that we have our life, and even our obedience. But see, Jesus chose to serve us, to be subservient to His Father to serve us, even in this way.

I think of that day, when we will become the house of God, the holy city Jerusalem, that comes down out of heaven from God, in which the throne of God will be forever, and in which God will live forever, along with the Son and the Spirit and the tree of life. And I read from what John saw in that place, And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him; and they shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. And there shall no longer be any night; and they shall not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine them; and they shall reign forever and ever.


So, I don't know, there are not enough words to describe Jesus, nor His Father, not even the Spirit. I just know that what I say to one I am saying to them all, they all hear equally and at the same instant. And I know that whatever I ask of one I am asking of them all. And I know that the love of God that I walk in is equally from them all.

I am not even sure that our present minds are able to comprehend just what majesty and power and glory is theirs. I know that the mystery is great.

Hey, this is great,

Blessings in His love,
vic
Hi VW,
Yes it is great because when we praise and worship Him we feel lifted up. I am sorry but that word subservient is difficult for my skin. Maybe it is my lack of knowledge of the English language but I prefer to think that Jesus chose to lay down his life not because he was subservient but because he loved us. It was in power and in positive affirmative action, a perfect love going forward, that had Jesus voluntarily laid down his life. Jesus even said, if he had asked His Father for 10,000 (?) angels to save him, God would have supplied them. To me this is very scary. How loving is God? To think He would sacrifice this plan.What next!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The whole thing blows me away but still scares me. I don't want to whip out and cause distress.
love
edwin
love
edwin.
 
E

ed

Guest
#78
actually, i was about to say the same thing that tommy said about the Way, Truth and Life, except i was going to include that God is the Life as well, and He is also Truth. and ed, don't worry about those fears, because all we have to do in order to be saved is proclaim that Jesus is Lord (according to Romans 10:9) but you haven't answered the question that you said you would answer, are you spending time on the answer? because if so, i am in no way trying to rush you.
Hi Saint,
I am very sorry, but in the midst of this I have lost track of your question. I am not very computer literate and I also use a 10 note book with a touch pad. Sometiimes the pages fly past and land on adds etc and then I am off somewhere else. Could you aks me again please.
On the question of Jesus saying he is the way, the truth etc. This confirms what I say. If you contend that God came down in the flesh then God is the way. But sin can't live in God and we are sinful, it is just that our sins are cast aside, forgotten , sanctified in Jesus. Jesus is the way to God. God's Son, the Word, before creation, the beginning and the end, who took up the body prepared for him, Jesus Christ is the way to God. You can not go directly to God. If you could then Jesus would not have been necessary.
love
edwin.
 
S

Saint

Guest
#79
You argue that if you can see Jesus, but can't see God, then God isn't Jesus. Did God not come down as a dove for everyone to see? did adam and eve not see God face to face on a daily basis, even a few minutes after they sinned (obviously pointing out that God is powerful enough to show His face), does God not have the power to come to Earth in a form that peope can see? if not, then His power is limited by itself.

and yes, there are paintings of Jesus from what the painters thought that He looked like, there are also paintings of God from what the painters thought that He looked like.

and what do you mean God isn't hands on? God WROTE the ten commandments. twice. God separated an entire sea. more than once. God made it rain for 40 days. God destroyed sodom and gamora. God even showed His back to Moses (probably where you're refering to earlier). God struck someone down, actually a lot of people down. God blinded an entire army. God sent down an entire army of chariots. and did God not come down and stand with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abindigo in the burning furnace? and you admit that God talked to and worked through a lot of people, which contradicts your statement that God is separated from His creation.

and again, just because you don't understand why God acts, doesn't mean He doesn't do that act. You don't understand why God would give Himself something. I don't understand why He would force people who don't marry the widowed wives of their dead brother, or get their sandle stolen, and then be called the sandle-less one. but that doesn't mean that He didn't do it, now does it? (on a personal note, that's one of my favorite stories)
these were my questions from a few days ago
 
E

ed

Guest
#80
but before you answer my other questions, ed, i would like to help you with your understanding with something i found: Collossians 1:15-17- He is the image of the invisible God (so yes, Jesus is the visible form of God), the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him(something that Genesis says that God did). 17 He is before all things (if God and Jesus are separate entities, that means this verse is telling us that Jesus is before God, making Jesus higher than the Father), and in him all things hold together.
Hi Saint,
Can I repeat what I said before. I love your passion. Here we are searching in our minds and confirming in scripture and coming closer to God in brotherly love. What more could Jesus ask of us?
To this question. I dont know how to quote from your post so I will retype what you wrote.
Retyping. " He is the image of the invisible God " a quote from Colossians 1:15-17 . Then you paraphrase this by saying. "(so yes, Jesus is the visible form of God)
Can you see the difference. Scripture says Jesus is the image. Your paraphrase says Jesus is. To me an image is a reflection of what is real.
Where you mention Jesus being before all things. I take that to exclude being before God as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 15:27 " For he has put everything under his feet.Now when it says that 'everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ."
God is from everlastiing to everlasting and Jesus is from the Beginning (of creation) to the end (of redemption). The Word begotten before the world and through whom the world was made is God's plan to restore creation back to Himself.