Perfected forever

[Grace777x70]

You are right EG..."flesh" is used 3 different ways in scripture that I have found . ( there may be others?? )

Defining terms used in the scriptures does help to make us talking about the same thing so that concepts/thoughts can be unified within each other's minds.

1) The flesh is used in scripture to define the body itself - as in a fleshly body

2) Flesh is used to describe self-effort - Ga. 3:3

3) The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we had when we were in Adam but now are left over after the old man died on the cross with Christ. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

The flesh knows our habits and ways that we use to get the life that we crave only it is contrary to God's ways and life.

The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.

I have seen these 3 uses for the term "flesh" in the scriptures - anyone see any more?

Context will determine which "flesh" is being spoken of in the scripture.

The body itself is not evil - just what is in it - namely the flesh and the law of sin which functions like a parasite in the flesh ( Romans 7: 17-22 ). Jesus had a natural body too and it was not evil.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i disagree, you first need a law to repent from.
acts 10 and acts 15 clearly state this.

I do? Then how did Adam Noah and Abraham repent? What you are saying does not make any sense. and paul in romans 1 would negate this thought also.

your interpretation is blind to what god has already done for you.

?? Blind to what? I know what God has done for me. That was my point.

.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2ask, acts 10, why this gentile never repented before getting the holy spirit.

hmm,, Have you read the OT? Ninevah (a gentile nation) repented at the teaching of Jonah, and nothing says Jonah taught them the law.

.8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15



and that s the difference between spiritual and physically. you were never asked to follow humans understanding you were ask this.

.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."


paul echos ,this in gal 5, telling a jew , again , how he was saved in the first place. (not a gentile , because of act 15 . romans 5 gals etc to name some.



and remember growth comes in many different sizes, i am not under human judgement, all christian believers are under a god through jesus judgement.

Um A jew is saved and always been saved the same way a gentile is and have always been saved, the same way Abraham was, They had faith in God, and it was accredited to them as righteousness.

So I am not sure what you are trying to say. If your saying they are saved different, you are teaching two gospels. Which is not in scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if we change words, like crime v sin.

would be the difference between 00- 70ad wording v 2016 wording

and open to different translations etc lol

not sure what you mean here.

 

[royalscot]

As I said - we are still responsible with what we do in our bodies. Let's say that my flesh wants to shoot heroin into my body. I can give in to it or not and if I do give in to it - then I will die quickly and my life on this earth will be cut short.

Romans 8:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

If you knew that in Christ you have a new heart - then you will know that it is the flesh which has "sin" in it - this is what is trying to get you to do "it's" desires.

Read my post that shows the difference between the "I" in Romans 7:17-23 an the "sin in the flesh". You can see that Paul is talking about two different desires - one that is his in the inner man and the other is the flesh.

The real truth is that you will never be able to get rid of the flesh. It is an enemy that stays with us until we die. We can however walk according to the spirit ( which is the new man in Christ - the new creation ) - this walking aaccording to the spirit will not allow the lusts of the flesh to be fulfilled in us.

Notice it is NOT - don't do the lusts of the flesh and than you will be walking according to the spirit. It is walk by the spirit and then the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled. These are two different things that if we get it backward we will be a mess.

I encourage you to listen to those videos I gave you earlier. It's important to understand the new creation in Christ. If your heart is not pure - you are not a Christian. I know you are a Christian - I said that to illustrate that no one gets into heaven unless they are 100% perfect and clean in their heart.

The good news is that Jesus did all this for us and we are joined with Him in our spirit. The spirit of man that is one with Christ cannot sin. 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18.

We have died already when we received Christ - there is no more dying in Christ as far as the new creation in Christ goes. We have died with Christ on the cross...which is the old man ( the impure heart ). We were resurrected with Christ when He was and we were raised to newness of life which is now called the new man in Christ - the new creation. This new man has been created in righteousness and holiness and is joined as one in the spirit with the Lord.

This enemy is definitely not in the Christians heart.Christ lives there - not the devil or the flesh. Take a look again all the scriptures that show the believer in Christ has now a new heart.

I firmly believe you are confusing the voice of the flesh and thinking that it is coming from being in your heart. You are new at the core because of being joined to Christ.

Knowing about this new creation in Christ will dramatically change your walk with the Lord so I encourage you to listen to the videos and then PM me if you like to discuss anything.

Bless you!

if your saved, out side of your own actions, then it would not be a gift from god.

ie saviour or being save by a third party.

if paul is warning, the jewish about the yoke, then it is out side of law, that you were saved. so knowing law , still makes no difference to how you were first saved(by grace a gift) .etc

 

[royalscot]

not sure what you mean here.

law of the of the land, called crime (ie police)2016

law of isreal called sin. (pharisee, turning up at your door)00 -70 ad

punishment by human judgement. yet all will answer to the spiritual ie god etc

 

[royalscot]

I do? Then how did Adam Noah and Abraham repent? What you are saying does not make any sense. and paul in romans 1 would negate this thought also.



?? Blind to what? I know what God has done for me. That was my point.



hmm,, Have you read the OT? Ninevah (a gentile nation) repented at the teaching of Jonah, and nothing says Jonah taught them the law.



Um A jew is saved and always been saved the same way a gentile is and have always been saved, the same way Abraham was, They had faith in God, and it was accredited to them as righteousness.

So I am not sure what you are trying to say. If your saying they are saved different, you are teaching two gospels. Which is not in scripture. (when was a gentile saved )(

when did i ask for you interpretation to my opinion, that how easy it is to see, judgement from humans. lol

when did abraham witness the end of an old covenant, given they died believing in a saviour to what was told to them. at that point in history.

you either believe in a new covenant or an old covenant. so make up your mind, in the one hand you have grace in the other you have law.

when did your quote give a date to a gentile being saved, so must be in a new covenant not the old.

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.Hebrews 9: The Earthly Holy Place


8 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for youHebrews 9

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. heb 9

 

[royalscot]

spot the difference , lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

when did i ask for you interpretation to my opinion, that how easy it is to see, judgement from humans. lol

when did abraham witness the end of an old covenant, given they died believing in a saviour to what was told to them. at that point in history.

you either believe in a new covenant or an old covenant. so make up your mind, in the one hand you have grace in the other you have law.

Have you even been listening?

No one was ever saved by law. Abraham had neither the law. or (as you said) did he witness the new covenant.

So if all we have is what you say, Abraham is lost.

when did your quote give a date to a gentile being saved, so must be in a new covenant not the old.

How was adam saved? Noah? Abraham?

there was no law

Jonah was sent to ninevah. They repented. They had no law.

So again, Whats your point?

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.Hebrews 9: The Earthly Holy Place


8 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for youHebrews 9

28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. heb 9

again, How was Abraham saved? Noah? Adam? non of them had the law.

David said sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire, he understood the law is not what saved him.

The author of Hebrews said the law never saved anyone Because the offering of bulls and goats could never remove sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

spot the difference , lol

no, not yet..lol

 

[royalscot]

Have you even been listening?

No one was ever saved by law. Abraham had neither the law. or (as you said) did he witness the new covenant.

So if all we have is what you say, Abraham is lost.


How was adam saved? Noah? Abraham?

there was no law

Jonah was sent to ninevah. They repented. They had no law.

So again, Whats your point?



again, How was Abraham saved? Noah? Adam? non of them had the law.

David said sacrifice and burnt offering God did not desire, he understood the law is not what saved him.

The author of Hebrews said the law never saved anyone Because the offering of bulls and goats could never remove sin.

why are you quoting people of an old covenant to define,a new covenant, what i have already said,
thats my point, is it not, when i said you cant have grace in one hand and law in the other hand.


you qote here.

it means

1. We have the righteousness in Christ vs having our own righteousness.
2. the mercy seat has been covered, and when God looks, he sees his sons blood. Not the things which prove us guilty
3. it means we have been justified (declared innocent of all wrong doing forever) because of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

it does not mean we are sinless perfect. as a certain poster is trying to say. If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there IS NO TRUTH in us.

again back to what i said
either jesus fixed sin of adam or jesus fixed the punishment that came through god. or he did not. he fixed this problem that would mean an open door to calling god abba father. etc so nothing to do with law.so if law did not save you why did this quote echo a old covenant. again i said the new covenant is the valid covenant to modern christians. the old is done away with.
ie grace a gift etc is there an echo, to what i said, or you trying to pull the fast one lol

interpretation is everything when a christian is living in a different covenant. etc

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why are you quoting people of an old covenant to define,a new covenant, what i have already said,
thats my point, is it not, when i said you cant have grace in one hand and law in the other hand.


you qote here.

it means

1. We have the righteousness in Christ vs having our own righteousness.
2. the mercy seat has been covered, and when God looks, he sees his sons blood. Not the things which prove us guilty
3. it means we have been justified (declared innocent of all wrong doing forever) because of the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

it does not mean we are sinless perfect. as a certain poster is trying to say. If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there IS NO TRUTH in us.

again back to what i said
either jesus fixed sin of adam or jesus fixed the punishment that came through god. or he did not. he fixed this problem that would mean an open door to calling god abba father. etc so nothing to do with law.so if law did not save you why did this quote echo a old covenant. again i said the new covenant is the valid covenant to modern christians. the old is done away with.
ie grace a gift etc is there an echo, to what i said, or you trying to pull the fast one lol

interpretation is everything when a christian is living in a different covenant. etc

you said you disagreed with me, You first need a LAW to repent from

Originally Posted by royalscot

i disagree, you first need a law to repent from.
acts 10 and acts 15 clearly state this.

That is where the conversation came from

Abraham had no law to repent from. Nor did noah, nor did adam

That was my point.. Lets start there.

 

[garee]

You are right EG..."flesh" is used 3 different ways in scripture that I have found . ( there may be others?? )

Defining terms used in the scriptures does help to make us talking about the same thing so that concepts/thoughts can be unified within each other's minds.

1) The flesh is used in scripture to define the body itself - as in a fleshly body

2) Flesh is used to describe self-effort - Ga. 3:3

3) The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we had when we were in Adam but now are left over after the old man died on the cross with Christ. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

The flesh knows our habits and ways that we use to get the life that we crave only it is contrary to God's ways and life.

The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.

I have seen these 3 uses for the term "flesh" in the scriptures - anyone see any more?

Context will determine which "flesh" is being spoken of in the scripture.

The body itself is not evil - just what is in it - namely the flesh and the law of sin which functions like a parasite in the flesh ( Romans 7: 17-22 ). Jesus had a natural body too and it was not evil.

If I could add to #2 describing self-effort which I do agree with. I would think it is the main key to understanding what it means to “walk or understand by faith”, the others you offered would follow.

Back to the beginning..When in the garden and Adam and Eve walked by faith. This is an exclusive understanding that came from hearing God who has no form rather than obeying his voice..they followed the voice of a creature as that seen experienced by their own self-effort that came from doing the pleasure of another will, seen .

God did not want them to outwardly experience what it meant to sin but rather wanted them to believe God to the salvation of their soul and reject the voice of the stranger, the father of lies.

When it came to ceremonial laws that were used as shadows pointing ahead to the coming of Christ our suffering Savor, in the flesh. When they performed those kind of works designed for ceremonies (not moral laws) they made it about self-effort as some work they could experience in their flesh as if they were not ceremonial, but as a works righteousness they could perform . Therefore hoping it was a sign from God just as some today use tongues or water baptism . As if there was an outward sign a witness of men, witnessing a person has the Holy Spirit.

It is one reason Christ who does not receive honor from men as the witness of men spoke to them in that way below( John 5). Just because by self-effort they performed a ceremonial work as a Jew it did not and neither could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; as if it was a moral law.

There is no outward sign, whither a person is a Jew or a gentile that confirms God’s witness that rises above the witness of men. Making the things of God as is they could come after a man simply make the word of god without effect.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” I receive not honour from men”. Joh 5:39

But rather than receiving honor from the work of men ,He gives the unseen honor to men, the unseen glory of god..

 

[royalscot]

you said you disagreed with me, You first need a LAW to repent from


That is where the conversation came from

Abraham had no law to repent from. Nor did noah, nor did adam

That was my point.. Lets start there.

it does not mean we are sinless perfect. as a certain poster is trying to say. If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there IS NO TRUTH in us.(your quote.)

answer this first and then we will get to why i dis agree.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh no, Th sinless perfect crowed has invaded my thread.

Run people run,, Or just put him on ignore. I still want to know why people deny positional sanctification, or perfection by justification.

(the term justify in greek means to be declaried righteious. Declared innocent of wrongdoing, Or to be (as far as the accusations brought against someone (perfect)

Amen! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defection, flawless, absolutely perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).

 

[Chester]

There is a vast difference between positional justification and sanctification than our experience right now. God does see all the future! He knows all believers will be "complete" (a much better translation of teleos) one day - when we see him face to face.

This statement is totally true, if you look at the perfect work Christ did in the past, and the perfect future we will enjoy with Jesus when he returns.

Positionally, we are "being" sanctified!

"But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:12-14 ESV

"μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους." Hebrews 10:14 Greek

The two verbs are very important and they work together. τετελείωκεν or teleleioken is a Perfect Active Indicative. It means to complete or perfect. It indicates a one time event (Jesus sacrifice on the cross) with a continuing result completed in the process of the participle ἁγιαζομένους or ayiazomenous. This verb is in the Present Passive and is a Participle and means "to be sanctified." So it works together with the verb teleleioken to point to the sacrifice of Jesus - that is perfect! And the fact that we are in the process of being made holy.

"Being"indicates a process. The present participle indicates this process is on-going. Other Scriptures show us that the job will be complete, when Jesus returns.

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appearswe shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12


The opening line in your OP, is a wrong theory, and certainly a poor and unscriptural doctrine. Plus, if you are really looking in context, Hebrews 10 is not about us at all! It is about how Jesus fulfilled the requirements for a perfect sacrifice. Do not make verses about us, when the purpose of the chapter is to delineate what Jesus did (for us, yes!)! But mostly about Jesus being perfect, and paving the way for us to be sanctified over this life as we walk with him.

Excellent post!

 

[dcontroversal]

There is sanctified for ever (positionally in Christ as one who is saved, justified and sealed) NOTHING can change that

Then there is the process of growth and maturity resulting in the sanctification of our lives for the cause of Christ.......

Paul as a SAVED child of GOD (cannot be lost) labored more abundantly than them ALL so that at the end of the day as a witness and servant he would not come to the point where he would be UNUSABLE as an instrument in the kingdom.....

it is not that difficult to understand......

Sanctification is dual in it's use........one speaks of positioning in Christ, the other speaks of our daily walk which is an ongoing process of growth and maturity!

 

[Ariel82]

Amen! Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defection, flawless, absolutely perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10).

This is an old thread, wonder if people still hold to their positions or if God has changed their beliefs since then.