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if you can not make up your mind, to the interpretation of scripture, either jesus fixed adams ,wrong doing or he did not.
if it fixed, why would paul quote
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3
again acts 2 is for jewish cristains
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
6 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.Romans 5
who s condemnation did it bring. who s punishment did it bring.
who fixed adam s wrong doing.
faith is personal, if some are mixing sin v saving grace. then how can it be saving. and what dose it save you from.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(hint)
who s condemnation dose it save you from. etc
if it fixed, why would paul quote
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.Galatians 3
again acts 2 is for jewish cristains
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
6 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.Romans 5
who s condemnation did it bring. who s punishment did it bring.
who fixed adam s wrong doing.
faith is personal, if some are mixing sin v saving grace. then how can it be saving. and what dose it save you from.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,(hint)
who s condemnation dose it save you from. etc
I am regretful that I have to leave talking with you guys to do some work!
I have one other thought.
God was always angry at Israel for keeping their hearts from Him and for focusing on the outside, where the problem did not spring from, thus making their outside look good to men, while inside, in heart, they were awful.
He wanted truth in the inward parts, an awareness and admitting of what was in them. To have the outside look good while sinning in their hearts, was His definition of a Pharisee.
When I am wrong in my heart, He wants me to admit it - not deny it. My not having to pay the just requirement that I die for it should bring about my bold admittance of it - not my denial that it is there.
My seeing and admitting it is not the end. He wants to change it. As long as I try to change it, and stir up my remembrance of all the reasons why I should not act so wickedly, it just gets worse and worse. When I ask Him to have mercy on me and create a right heart within me and to slay these enemies, it gets better and better. He WANTS me to be better and better and more and more conformed to Himself inside, in my heart. He doesn't speak to me that I will just have to put up with the enemies in the land until I die physically. He tells me to go in and possess the land and says that everywhere my foot treads will be given to me if I follow and trust Him. It seems it would be just as wicked to insist there were no enemies in the land and to just ignore them and say they cannot harm me and aren't even really there, as it would be to say they are too powerful and I cannot ever slay them so I won't go in and take the land by His hand and His word.
I have one other thought.
God was always angry at Israel for keeping their hearts from Him and for focusing on the outside, where the problem did not spring from, thus making their outside look good to men, while inside, in heart, they were awful.
He wanted truth in the inward parts, an awareness and admitting of what was in them. To have the outside look good while sinning in their hearts, was His definition of a Pharisee.
When I am wrong in my heart, He wants me to admit it - not deny it. My not having to pay the just requirement that I die for it should bring about my bold admittance of it - not my denial that it is there.
My seeing and admitting it is not the end. He wants to change it. As long as I try to change it, and stir up my remembrance of all the reasons why I should not act so wickedly, it just gets worse and worse. When I ask Him to have mercy on me and create a right heart within me and to slay these enemies, it gets better and better. He WANTS me to be better and better and more and more conformed to Himself inside, in my heart. He doesn't speak to me that I will just have to put up with the enemies in the land until I die physically. He tells me to go in and possess the land and says that everywhere my foot treads will be given to me if I follow and trust Him. It seems it would be just as wicked to insist there were no enemies in the land and to just ignore them and say they cannot harm me and aren't even really there, as it would be to say they are too powerful and I cannot ever slay them so I won't go in and take the land by His hand and His word.
I agree. But if I claim I am perfect inwardly, He cannot effect this miracle and has to wait until I admit the truth of what is in me.
There is a second part to that, at least there was for me. Not only do I have to see it and admit it, but I have to come to understand that there's not a darn thing I can do about it. I am stubborn beyond what you could ever imagine so this part took years. He has to do it.
There is a second part to that, at least there was for me. Not only do I have to see it and admit it, but I have to come to understand that there's not a darn thing I can do about it. I am stubborn beyond what you could ever imagine so this part took years. He has to do it.
and for the record, a new covenant was in place before anyone here ,opened there bibles.
so the interpretation of what a new covenant is , would have to be understood to understand etc
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.15 Romans 2: God's Righteous Judgment
if you dont have the law, then why are you looking at sin for. etc
so the interpretation of what a new covenant is , would have to be understood to understand etc
14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.15 Romans 2: God's Righteous Judgment
if you dont have the law, then why are you looking at sin for. etc
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Ahhh...so anger is murder. I do agree with that. Murder/anger is a work of the flesh NOT of the new creation in Christ which is the fruit of the spirit.
This is simply walking by the flesh instead of the spirit.
The truth is that the flesh is not the real you. It is us giving in to the flesh. Without understanding the new creation in Christ we will be at the mercy of our flesh constantly deceiving us.
Without understanding that we have now a new heart in Christ - our emotions, circumstances and un-renewed minds will take us on many trips.....lol
We are responsible with what we do in these bodies and for the thoughts we allow to take up residence in our minds. This is why the renewal of our mind is so important - to agree with the truths of Christ 's life that is in us now in our new creation in Christ.
Paul says that "sin" which is our flesh is the thing defilying us - not the real us. Notice the "I", "one" and the "sin in the flesh".
Romans 7:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me,that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:19-23 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. ( who is this "one" who wants to do good? - the real you )
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( this is the real you in Christ )
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
E
I think you are misunderstanding.. Perfect inward means we are in Christ. in the context of the way they are using it.. Maybe that is why Angela is missing it too. It is a term they use.
When I say I am perfet inward. It means the spirit of God in me is perfect. at least that is what I hear them saying.
When I say I am perfet inward. It means the spirit of God in me is perfect. at least that is what I hear them saying.
That's right. We are joined in one spirit with the Lord in our inner man which is in Christ. If we don't see what the Lord has already done - we will be forever trying to do what already is done by Him and we will be forever trying to clean up the flesh - this can't be done. It's a form of religious works and it is a trap and it stunts our growth in the Lord.
We can however live by the spirit so that we will not fulfill the flesh to do "it's" desires. "It's" desires is NOT us.
The true Christian life is seen in the promised land - God left giants in the land so that they would have to depend on Him. It is the same with us believers - we have this sin in the flesh and we live in these vessels so that the excellency of the power may be clearly seen to be of Christ and not ourselves to change ourselves in the flesh.
As we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us so that the inward life in Christ can clearly be seen in this world.
This is why it is so important to look at Christ and what He has already done so that the Holy Spirit can transform us - the answer is NOT to look at the flesh. The sin in the flesh deceives us into thinking it's the real us. Sin is deceitful. ( Heb. 3:13 )
We can however live by the spirit so that we will not fulfill the flesh to do "it's" desires. "It's" desires is NOT us.
The true Christian life is seen in the promised land - God left giants in the land so that they would have to depend on Him. It is the same with us believers - we have this sin in the flesh and we live in these vessels so that the excellency of the power may be clearly seen to be of Christ and not ourselves to change ourselves in the flesh.
As we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us so that the inward life in Christ can clearly be seen in this world.
This is why it is so important to look at Christ and what He has already done so that the Holy Spirit can transform us - the answer is NOT to look at the flesh. The sin in the flesh deceives us into thinking it's the real us. Sin is deceitful. ( Heb. 3:13 )
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I see
Like i said in my much earlier post when people speak of perfection they make the mistake of assuming the poster is speaking of being sinless and perfect by our own means and I did not know which one you were speaking of but i know better than to assume the latter. I agree with your discription of perfection
Like i said in my much earlier post when people speak of perfection they make the mistake of assuming the poster is speaking of being sinless and perfect by our own means and I did not know which one you were speaking of but i know better than to assume the latter. I agree with your discription of perfection
F
Right. What you are speaking of is what scripture calls the flesh. The flesh does not get "better", it does not improve, and neither does it ever go away this side of eternity. The flesh is opposed to the Spirit, and the Spirit is opposed to the flesh. And they always will be. This is the internal conflict that all Christians experience. And if anyone isn't experiencing it, they should really question whether they actually have the Spirit of Christ within.
So obviously I have been a little slow in keeping up with the thread but I hope we all have a better understanding of what perfection is for us as Children of the most high. I mean I have met some people who truly do believe they are perfect and without sin and look down on others who do not live and believe as they do but for most of us we understand that we are made perfect not because of how holy or pure or clean we are but because of how much he is.
I can't even begin to tell you how often the enemy pounces me with thoughts like i am not strong strong enough I am not good enough I am to sinful he loves to remind me of all my failings all my sins my screw ups and then comparing myself to God showing how vastly I am lacking and in the wrong. But sometimes I can just see my inner self laughing and saying to the enemy you still don't seem to get it do? It was never about my strength or my perfection that mattered because believe me I am not not unaware of all my sins my flaws everything about me that isn't of God but to me that is all the more reason of why he and I make the perfect combination and why anything is possible with God because for whatever I am lacking in he isn't and whatever I am not lacking in he is even less lacking.
I can't even begin to tell you how often the enemy pounces me with thoughts like i am not strong strong enough I am not good enough I am to sinful he loves to remind me of all my failings all my sins my screw ups and then comparing myself to God showing how vastly I am lacking and in the wrong. But sometimes I can just see my inner self laughing and saying to the enemy you still don't seem to get it do? It was never about my strength or my perfection that mattered because believe me I am not not unaware of all my sins my flaws everything about me that isn't of God but to me that is all the more reason of why he and I make the perfect combination and why anything is possible with God because for whatever I am lacking in he isn't and whatever I am not lacking in he is even less lacking.
E
I agree, If Eph 1 - 3 is not engrained in our minds (our position in christ, and the fact we have already received every spiritual blessing which is in Christ Jesus, including having the spirit in our heart as a guarantee) and the fact of the truth, That we have been perfected forever. while we are in the process of being sanctified..
we will have trouble resisting the evil one and his lies.
I like the way John put it, "I have told you ALL THESE things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and continue to believe in his name
we will have trouble resisting the evil one and his lies.
I like the way John put it, "I have told you ALL THESE things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and continue to believe in his name
Something here appears not right to me. You agree that anger is murder. And you say murder is a work of the flesh. I call murder sin. That anger/murder came from within me to defile me. I do not think He intends for me to go on being a murderer and I do not think He says, you will remain a murderer until the day you die. I think He means to give me victory now. I think He intends for me to stop my murdering.
Here is my knot. You call murder a work of the flesh and you call trying to stop murdering a work of the flesh. So murder is a sin and trying to stop murdering is a sin, and both are works of the flesh. It is wrong to sin and it is wrong to think I can stop it. I agree with you up to that point.
Where my disagreement begins is that I do not separate myself from my sin. I did it, I own up to it. It was my own heart that did it. I cannot separate myself from my heart and say my heart did not really do it. The sin is there in my heart, quite obvious to me. I cannot say, oh well, this is just how I will always be. I will continue to murder until the day I die and there is nothing to be done for it. Instead, I cry out to God to create a clean heart in me and to see how my enemies are too strong for me and to not let them defeat me and cause embarrassment to His name.
I don't know if it has come out clear. I fully trust Him to slay my enemies. I do not think He intends for me to live the rest of my life as a murderer. I think He intends to make my enemies the dust under my feet. I am trying to convey what I see as our main difference of thought. I think I see the enemy that must die as inside me and in fact AS me. And this is why I have to pick up my cross and die to find my life in Him. It seems you see it different and think this enemy can't and won't ever die and that this enemy is not even your own heart.
E
You murder because you CHOSE to murder, not because you are helpless to keep committing it.
Genesis 4.6-7 show us this clearly...
SIN becomes a choice for the child of God, not something you cannot control....Many including, Pentecostals preach and teach that Paul proved this in Romans 7, that he was helpless even after conversion to keep on sinning....That is false teaching, Romans 7 shows us how Paul lived per-conversion or even after Conversion if we refuse to let the Spirit led us into empowering grace, and Romans 8 shows us what living by the Spirit does for us....
Genesis 4.6-7 show us this clearly...
SIN becomes a choice for the child of God, not something you cannot control....Many including, Pentecostals preach and teach that Paul proved this in Romans 7, that he was helpless even after conversion to keep on sinning....That is false teaching, Romans 7 shows us how Paul lived per-conversion or even after Conversion if we refuse to let the Spirit led us into empowering grace, and Romans 8 shows us what living by the Spirit does for us....
As I said - we are still responsible with what we do in our bodies. Let's say that my flesh wants to shoot heroin into my body. I can give in to it or not and if I do give in to it - then I will die quickly and my life on this earth will be cut short.
Romans 8:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
If you knew that in Christ you have a new heart - then you will know that it is the flesh which has "sin" in it - this is what is trying to get you to do "it's" desires.
Read my post that shows the difference between the "I" in Romans 7:17-23 an the "sin in the flesh". You can see that Paul is talking about two different desires - one that is his in the inner man and the other is the flesh.
The real truth is that you will never be able to get rid of the flesh. It is an enemy that stays with us until we die. We can however walk according to the spirit ( which is the new man in Christ - the new creation ) - this walking aaccording to the spirit will not allow the lusts of the flesh to be fulfilled in us.
Notice it is NOT - don't do the lusts of the flesh and than you will be walking according to the spirit. It is walk by the spirit and then the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled. These are two different things that if we get it backward we will be a mess.
I encourage you to listen to those videos I gave you earlier. It's important to understand the new creation in Christ. If your heart is not pure - you are not a Christian. I know you are a Christian - I said that to illustrate that no one gets into heaven unless they are 100% perfect and clean in their heart.
The good news is that Jesus did all this for us and we are joined with Him in our spirit. The spirit of man that is one with Christ cannot sin. 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18.
We have died already when we received Christ - there is no more dying in Christ as far as the new creation in Christ goes. We have died with Christ on the cross...which is the old man ( the impure heart ). We were resurrected with Christ when He was and we were raised to newness of life which is now called the new man in Christ - the new creation. This new man has been created in righteousness and holiness and is joined as one in the spirit with the Lord.
This enemy is definitely not in the Christians heart.Christ lives there - not the devil or the flesh. Take a look again all the scriptures that show the believer in Christ has now a new heart.
I firmly believe you are confusing the voice of the flesh and thinking that it is coming from being in your heart. You are new at the core because of being joined to Christ.
Knowing about this new creation in Christ will dramatically change your walk with the Lord so I encourage you to listen to the videos and then PM me if you like to discuss anything.
Bless you!
E
I think it would help if we try to get off religious words. Like "flesh" which means so many different things to different people. And just say what it is.
The flesh is the desire and will to take care of my needs, no matter what it takes.
All sin comes from the flesh. It is the old man, or human nature. It is where the temptation to sin comes.
Christ in us, and seeking the spirit allows us to overcome the flesh. Because focus is taken off self. and placed on service of other people. If my mind is focused on serving others, I am not worried about serving self. and thus will not sin.
The problem is, We can not do this even 24/7 And many of us can not even go an hour without doing this at least once..
The amount of sanctification one has been empowered to achieve (by Christ in love) is based on how much we focus on serving others, vs how much we are focused on serving self.
The flesh is the desire and will to take care of my needs, no matter what it takes.
All sin comes from the flesh. It is the old man, or human nature. It is where the temptation to sin comes.
Christ in us, and seeking the spirit allows us to overcome the flesh. Because focus is taken off self. and placed on service of other people. If my mind is focused on serving others, I am not worried about serving self. and thus will not sin.
The problem is, We can not do this even 24/7 And many of us can not even go an hour without doing this at least once..
The amount of sanctification one has been empowered to achieve (by Christ in love) is based on how much we focus on serving others, vs how much we are focused on serving self.
i disagree, you first need a law to repent from.
acts 10 and acts 15 clearly state this. your interpretation is blind to what god has already done for you.
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2ask, acts 10, why this gentile never repented before getting the holy spirit.
.8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15
and that s the difference between spiritual and physically. you were never asked to follow humans understanding you were ask this.
.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
paul echos ,this in gal 5, telling a jew , again , how he was saved in the first place. (not a gentile , because of act 15 . romans 5 gals etc to name some.
and remember growth comes in many different sizes, i am not under human judgement, all christian believers are under a god through jesus judgement.
acts 10 and acts 15 clearly state this. your interpretation is blind to what god has already done for you.
.21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.Galatians 2ask, acts 10, why this gentile never repented before getting the holy spirit.
.8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."Acts 15
and that s the difference between spiritual and physically. you were never asked to follow humans understanding you were ask this.
.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
paul echos ,this in gal 5, telling a jew , again , how he was saved in the first place. (not a gentile , because of act 15 . romans 5 gals etc to name some.
and remember growth comes in many different sizes, i am not under human judgement, all christian believers are under a god through jesus judgement.