Please give me your input!?

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jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#82
You don't have the authority to speak to how the Disciples saw it. Jesus himself said that he and the father are one.
Putting any other spin on it is man's imagination.Not God's word.
but i do have enough common sense to read scripture and see it does not add up.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
#83
but i do have enough common sense to read scripture and see it does not add up.
Maybe that's the problem. You think common sense comprehends God's breath. That's why you think God's words don't add up when speaking of this particular topic. Which I won't go further into due to the rules.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#84
Maybe that's the problem. You think common sense comprehends God's breath. That's why you think God's words don't add up when speaking of this particular topic. Which I won't go further into due to the rules.
so we should throw our common sense out the window and just be lead by whatever we are told?
scripture adds up just fine, what does not add up is the doctrine.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,101
7,934
113
#85
Let me get this STRAIGHT; I 'ATTACK' Jesus by BELIEVING WHAT HE SAID?????
You are DISBELIEVING what He said: Before Abraham was I AM.

Now do you believe that Jesus is I AM THAT I AM, the great I AM, the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

YEA OR NAY?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#86
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More like Ice Cream melted by Steam.
God SENT His son- 1/3 God did NOT 'become' a son when born a man.
God gave us and the Jews MANY references that EASILY help us to understand Jesus DID have a beginning/creation/birth, when saying he is His SON, His only-begotten, the firstborn of all creation, and the beginning of all His creation.
The clergy tries to brush all those away saying they are just symbolic titles.
You know question what you said in this post proves you must be in the Jw cult because you have on your mind Proverbs 8:22 and Revelation 3:14. These are the main verses you guys use to prove Jesus is a created being.

So I have a question for you where I have never received a credible or even a Biblical answer for. Since you believe that Jesus Christ is a created being (which also means he did not preexist His incarnation as a man) here is the question?

Why is Jesus clearly identified or presentd as the "Agent" of creation at John 1:-3, Colossians 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:10 and Revelation 3:14 not only by the Apostles but by His own Father especially at Hebrews 1:10? Can you please explain that for all of us here. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
#87
the church has not always accepted this, the church has been arguing this for 1700 years. before 300 (about) you will not find this argument anywhere, i wonder why???
Wrong! Read Saint Paul's letters. It is clear that he thought about Jesus Christ as God.

so "SON OF" means the exact same thing as the Most High? Adam, angels, psalm 82, all these beings are the Father? how many Fathers are there? this is the same Father that says He is one?
i just dont get how you guys can ignore "son of", you act as if its not there at all. its not the same thing.
We don't ignore "son of"; it is actually quite important! If you read carefully Saint Paul's writings, you'll notice that (after the resurrection of Christ), you can no longer refer to the Most High without including the Son and the Holy Spirit.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
#88
Also, going back to Jesus Christ' claims of being the Son of God. This obviously offended the Jews because Christ not only said He was the Son of God but He also attributed to Himself things that only God could do.

Perhaps for you, the claim 'son of God' is something of no seriousness, but for the Jews it was blasphemy. Jesus Christ took the Law (which they knew very well), and made Himself the center of it. Every thing that was about Yahweh and Israel (what Yahweh ought to do for Israel), He claimed He would do.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
542
113
#89
so we should throw our common sense out the window and just be lead by whatever we are told?
scripture adds up just fine, what does not add up is the doctrine.
Since I never said any of that, I'm out.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#90
Here is what happens, when one misconstrues, the Holy Anointed One OF Israel, aka Yeshua Messiah, or, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, or, Jehovah's SALVATION, as BEING The LORD! The God OF Israel! Or? LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!

The title of which Jesus NEVER EVER ascribed TO Himself! "My Father who is IN heaven!" This is of an utmost distinction by Jesus, to whom the Father IN Heaven, thought it NOT ROBBERY "of", or "by" Christ, in His stating that "My Father and I, are ONE!" Also of which was noticed that Christ had the FULL EMBODIMENT of the GODHEAD "IN Him!"

Just the same, however, as Jesus stated that "No ONE, comes TO the Father, BUT, by Me!" As Christ IS the "sheep gate" INTO the "sheep's pen", WHERE, ones' Yoke, is made easier, and ones' Burden is made lighter, in Christ's "forgiving" of the "sin/s of the world?" The "mistake" made, is the ones' who fail in the "picking UP", of their individual "crosses." Feeling, rather content, in their leaving them right where they "laid" 'em. IOW, Happy just "seeing" the Father IN the Son, is the SAME as "BEING IN", "The GODHEAD!"

NOTHING, and I repeat, NOTHING, could be FURTHER from what "actually transpires", While "in the Pasture of the "Good Shepherd!"
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#91
Wrong! Read Saint Paul's letters. It is clear that he thought about Jesus Christ as God.

We don't ignore "son of"; it is actually quite important! If you read carefully Saint Paul's writings, you'll notice that (after the resurrection of Christ), you can no longer refer to the Most High without including the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I dont know what you would think that. Why do you think the council of nicea was called. Because the church was divided on the issue. And after nicea it would be another 300 – 500 years for this trinity process to complete. Thats an awful long long process for something that, according to you, is so plainly written in scripture.

And how did people become to accept this doctrine, if they refused they were burned alive. Is this how Jesus and the 12 got believers to follow them?

so any time we see "son of" this is a reference to the Most High? the sons of the Most High that sang at creation, each one of them are the Most High? i thought the Most High says He is one?
 

memyselfi

Junior Member
Jan 12, 2017
503
260
63
#92
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?

My analogy is scientifically correct when you break down elements, but still correct in theory. Water is three substances: ice, vapor, liquid.... all ARE forms of water. Let ice melt you have water. Capture steam let it cool you have water. The liquid form of water is …. well... water. But they are all three unique in their own way.

Can G-d step out of heaven and still be G-d in heaven? Well, yes. The Torah tells us so. He visited Father Abraham, Joshua, Samson's parents'. ... and so on... We know G-d can step out of heaven, take on human form and still be G-d in heaven doing His G-d stuff... If He can do it for a few seconds, minuets, or a day.... what ever...Why can He not do it for not just 33 years... but forever, because the Bible says He sits at the right hand of the Father (Himself).... I MEAN HE IS G-D!!!!

So, YES... He is G-d and He is the Son who will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God.
 
Oct 8, 2018
108
23
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#93
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?
Ok, this is a subject that is super tricky. Why? Because this is at the deep end of the pool when it comes to understanding more than just the "milk and bones" of the Bible.

1. In simple, if you are a strong believer in Yeshua, you fight your flesh and you love G-d and Yeshua, then honestly, don't sweat it. Keep working out yourself and keep loving others and pushing for truth!

2. I believe Ariel Cohen Alloro (an Orthodox Rabbi who believes in Yeshua) hold the best answer because of this a deep Kabbalistic root.

3. In short, G-d is One. (Sh'ma Yisrael Adonoy Elokeinu, Adonoy Echad). What does One mean? G-d is everywhere and in everything. He is not limited to a body, nor can He be only confined to one location. All that we know of Him, is little a grain of sand when it comes to the infinite wisdom of G-d. Now, if G-d is everything that like Psalms 82:6 and John 10:30 state, we can all be "Elokim" (not H-Shem the 4 letter Tetragrammaton). Meaning, we all have a part of G-d in us and EVERYTHING on earth has a part of G-d in it (simply speaking that is). So who declared or commanded anywhere that G-d is confined to "3 entities"? You know that Israel is called One with G-d? Moshe was called Elokim, angels are called Elokim, Avraham was One with G-d and even Joshua bowed down to the angel that G-d placed His NAME upon. So who or what limited G-d to these 3 entities? To limit G-d, destroys the power of G-d. The whole book of Deuteronomy which is part of the Torah is written in the tense of Moshe, not G-d. Because being "one with G-d" means that you are righteous enough, that G-d can use YOU as a vessel to "dwell" (partially in). That is why the body is called "The Holy Temple". You think G-d only dwelt in the Temple when there was one? So what does it mean to enter the "Holy of Holies"?

4. But......(lol I hate this part)....there is something powerful beyond measure with Yeshua NO DOUBT. Exodus 23:20 states that there will be an "Angel" that G-d would place his name on and Joshua (Joshua 5:14) bows to it. To bear G-d's name does not mean to BE G-d, but you emulate exactly what it means to be like Him (just like how Moshe's face radiated with G-d's presence), however, Yeshua is at an EVEN HIGHER LEVEL.

For G-d was in a bush speaking to G-d, so does that mean G-d is a bush because G-d and the bush became One? Or is G-d a cloud because He was the Clouds of Glory? (In fact nature holds a high level of spirituality because it comes from G-d more "directly").

This could go on, but I hope this sparks a thought. Remember, this doesn't hold much value, the works and love we express to all souls weigh much more than the argument of the Trinity....and if it makes people sleep better at night....to be honest...I don't argue it. No 2 people should ever fight about this because it is very complicated to understand. We have much greater things at hand.

However, when it comes to Jews...this can be a big road blocker and I understand why. The best argument, is Yeshua's own usage of Psalms 82:6 in John 10:30. To be called Elokim/G-d means a lot, but it does not make it the 4 letter Tetragrammaton. Yeshua never called Himself that name. But can I worship Yeshua like Joshua worshiped the Angel with G-d's 4 Letter Name on it? Yes! :)

Confusing eh?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#94
Ok, this is a subject that is super tricky. Why? Because this is at the deep end of the pool when it comes to understanding more than just the "milk and bones" of the Bible.

1. In simple, if you are a strong believer in Yeshua, you fight your flesh and you love G-d and Yeshua, then honestly, don't sweat it. Keep working out yourself and keep loving others and pushing for truth!

2. I believe Ariel Cohen Alloro (an Orthodox Rabbi who believes in Yeshua) hold the best answer because of this a deep Kabbalistic root.

3. In short, G-d is One. (Sh'ma Yisrael Adonoy Elokeinu, Adonoy Echad). What does One mean? G-d is everywhere and in everything. He is not limited to a body, nor can He be only confined to one location. All that we know of Him, is little a grain of sand when it comes to the infinite wisdom of G-d. Now, if G-d is everything that like Psalms 82:6 and John 10:30 state, we can all be "Elokim" (not H-Shem the 4 letter Tetragrammaton). Meaning, we all have a part of G-d in us and EVERYTHING on earth has a part of G-d in it (simply speaking that is). So who declared or commanded anywhere that G-d is confined to "3 entities"? You know that Israel is called One with G-d? Moshe was called Elokim, angels are called Elokim, Avraham was One with G-d and even Joshua bowed down to the angel that G-d placed His NAME upon. So who or what limited G-d to these 3 entities? To limit G-d, destroys the power of G-d. The whole book of Deuteronomy which is part of the Torah is written in the tense of Moshe, not G-d. Because being "one with G-d" means that you are righteous enough, that G-d can use YOU as a vessel to "dwell" (partially in). That is why the body is called "The Holy Temple". You think G-d only dwelt in the Temple when there was one? So what does it mean to enter the "Holy of Holies"?

4. But......(lol I hate this part)....there is something powerful beyond measure with Yeshua NO DOUBT. Exodus 23:20 states that there will be an "Angel" that G-d would place his name on and Joshua (Joshua 5:14) bows to it. To bear G-d's name does not mean to BE G-d, but you emulate exactly what it means to be like Him (just like how Moshe's face radiated with G-d's presence), however, Yeshua is at an EVEN HIGHER LEVEL.

For G-d was in a bush speaking to G-d, so does that mean G-d is a bush because G-d and the bush became One? Or is G-d a cloud because He was the Clouds of Glory? (In fact nature holds a high level of spirituality because it comes from G-d more "directly").

This could go on, but I hope this sparks a thought. Remember, this doesn't hold much value, the works and love we express to all souls weigh much more than the argument of the Trinity....and if it makes people sleep better at night....to be honest...I don't argue it. No 2 people should ever fight about this because it is very complicated to understand. We have much greater things at hand.

However, when it comes to Jews...this can be a big road blocker and I understand why. The best argument, is Yeshua's own usage of Psalms 82:6 in John 10:30. To be called Elokim/G-d means a lot, but it does not make it the 4 letter Tetragrammaton. Yeshua never called Himself that name. But can I worship Yeshua like Joshua worshiped the Angel with G-d's 4 Letter Name on it? Yes! :)

Confusing eh?
Actually the angel of the Lord you referenced at Joshua 5:14 is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ who appeared to Joshua in the form of a man The same is true when you referenced Exodus chapter 3 where He also appeared as a man. And yes, Jesus Christ did refer to Himself as God not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well. Read closely starting at John 10:30 and find out why He quoted Psalm 82:6. Of course you are right that the "gods" who are men are not really God. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Oct 8, 2018
108
23
18
#95
Actually the angel of the Lord you referenced at Joshua 5:14 is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ who appeared to Joshua in the form of a man The same is true when you referenced Exodus chapter 3 where He also appeared as a man. And yes, Jesus Christ did refer to Himself as God not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well. Read closely starting at John 10:30 and find out why He quoted Psalm 82:6. Of course you are right that the "gods" who are men are not really God. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hey Bluto! Ah you speak well! Yes I too believe that Yeshua was that angel. There is much depth to this and even when I present this more to Jews....it causes some fun. It is a tricky and difficult subject and there is much for me to learn on it. If you ever study Ramban, there is a hefty handful understand of this "Angel" and I believe Ramban as a Jew believed in Yeshua based on how he describes this Angel. (L"M)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#96
Hey Bluto! Ah you speak well! Yes I too believe that Yeshua was that angel. There is much depth to this and even when I present this more to Jews....it causes some fun. It is a tricky and difficult subject and there is much for me to learn on it. If you ever study Ramban, there is a hefty handful understand of this "Angel" and I believe Ramban as a Jew believed in Yeshua based on how he describes this Angel. (L"M)
Well thank you moutaindude, I do know a little bit about this subject, actually I know a lot about it. And no, I do not know Ramban, do you have any references or sites I can check? Can you share a little of your presentation. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Oct 8, 2018
108
23
18
#97
Hey Bluto. Ah this subject is way too heavy for me. I well let Sefaria give you a glimpse. I studied it last year for a while and it really gave me "ammo" when it came to understanding how H-Shem uses His name. As I study Kabbalah here and there and Ariel Cohen Alloro explains it obviously 100x better, I am understanding more of the complexity of G-d, humanity and the Mashiach. I'll send you a couple links to begin:

a) https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.23.20?lang=bi&with=Ramban&lang2=en (Sefaria is access to almost most main Jewish sources). Click on any verse and open a world of explanation. If you ever study the Talmud, let me know I can help you along.

b)
(I fear to give this, but he is one of literally a couple of main Rabbi's who exposed themselves to believe in Yeshua. You can learn endlessly with Ariel but it is at a higher level of understanding - Kabbalah) His Rabbi who is one of the biggest Rabbi's in the World, Rav Ginsburgh is AMAZING. You may understand him better.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#98
Hey Bluto. Ah this subject is way too heavy for me. I well let Sefaria give you a glimpse. I studied it last year for a while and it really gave me "ammo" when it came to understanding how H-Shem uses His name. As I study Kabbalah here and there and Ariel Cohen Alloro explains it obviously 100x better, I am understanding more of the complexity of G-d, humanity and the Mashiach. I'll send you a couple links to begin:

a) https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.23.20?lang=bi&with=Ramban&lang2=en (Sefaria is access to almost most main Jewish sources). Click on any verse and open a world of explanation. If you ever study the Talmud, let me know I can help you along.

b)
(I fear to give this, but he is one of literally a couple of main Rabbi's who exposed themselves to believe in Yeshua. You can learn endlessly with Ariel but it is at a higher level of understanding - Kabbalah) His Rabbi who is one of the biggest Rabbi's in the World, Rav Ginsburgh is AMAZING. You may understand him better.
I did look up Ramban and as soon as I saw the word "Kabalah" it turned me off. Orthodox Jews will have nothing to do with this "mysticism" and occult knowledge trying to gain greater levels of being connected to God. But I will check them out to see how they reconcile their belief system with the true Yeshua of the Old Testament. I'll get back to you. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Oct 8, 2018
108
23
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#99
I did look up Ramban and as soon as I saw the word "Kabalah" it turned me off. Orthodox Jews will have nothing to do with this "mysticism" and occult knowledge trying to gain greater levels of being connected to God. But I will check them out to see how they reconcile their belief system with the true Yeshua of the Old Testament. I'll get back to you. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Ah I see. You know, I think once a upon a time, I thought the same. Why? Probably because I was context with what I knew and I was safe and anything too "extreme" was too much. Also, most of the time, power and knowledge in the wrong hands can cause a mess and Kabbalah can do that.

Gematria, for example, is an easy place to start (relatively) because using Hebrew and the values are given, spell impeccable truth. Or look at the letter "yod" and how G-d made it and how it is the start of many Holy names, include G-d and Yeshua. There is so much behind that, and it can teach deeper morals. But of course, used poorly = chaos. That goes for anything good. So is the object impure or how we use it? Just like Cain, he was not wrong in advancing technology at his time, but how he used it and it leads to pride and his own destruction.

I won't try and convenience you, but maybe in time, you'll see its power. For example, understanding the soul and the heavens is necessary to know "how" exactly we connect with G-d. Or why if you put all the lefts of G-d's name on top of each other, it forms a human being and what that means in relativity to, being created in His image.

It also will help understand the book of Revelation 1000x better LOL.
 
Oct 7, 2018
68
39
18
Actually the angel of the Lord you referenced at Joshua 5:14 is none other than the preincarnate Jesus Christ who appeared to Joshua in the form of a man The same is true when you referenced Exodus chapter 3 where He also appeared as a man. And yes, Jesus Christ did refer to Himself as God not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well. Read closely starting at John 10:30 and find out why He quoted Psalm 82:6. Of course you are right that the "gods" who are men are not really God. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
“I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I myself will make them lie down, declares the Lord God. I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them in justice.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭34:15-16‬ ‭

In Oh so many simple ways the God shares with us he is who he has sent. He is the Holy one of Israel. He will redeem Israel 🙏 thank you all for your input. Now can all we come together as the holy city and lift his name up High! Thank you Jesus.