(poll) Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

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Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

  • He chooses us by predestination

    Votes: 31 64.6%
  • He gives us the strength and desire, but the choice is up to us in the end

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • It's completely up to us without his strength or given desires by him

    Votes: 1 2.1%

  • Total voters
    48
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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I think they're in harmony because they both harmoniously bear out the individual's choice. I commented that the presence of man's choice is in John 6:65. Is there any question of choice in John 3:16?
(Just to be clear, I'm quite opposed to calvinism.)

As in every case God must do the first work of creating. Natural man is reckoned as having "no faith" not little "none" . The faith of Christ the anointing Holy Spirit of God comes from hearing Him not seen called the hearing of faith, God is the incorruptible seed by which all men are born again.

If we begin with the hearing of His faith that he works in us to both will and do his good pleasure as a imputed righteous we will have that same faith working in us when we do receive our new incorruptible bodies, the end of our new born again faith.

Don't do as the foolish Galatian's and beive they the faith to belive Christ came from their own selves

First things first.

Galatians 3:1-5 King James Version (KJV) O U Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Flesh or Spirit the two chices.

Which master we will serve?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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The thing is God chooses first, He has always chosen first. But we also get to choose, whether to follow Him or not. And sometimes its a hard choice, and satan gives way too many tempting options or choices to not follow Him. Which is why the narrow way through Jesus is the only way!
Creation, neither the angel or mankind were not created as "free agents". But created to do the will of another and call that free will God set up laws.

Doing the will of the father of lies is a will in bondage to the things seen (no faith)

Yes we do get to chose whether we sin or stay faithful or whether we harden our hearts in disbelief (no faith) or mix faith(the unseen eternal) in what we do hear, causing our hearts to become soft .

He who gave us the His faith previously us having none must remain faithful he cannot deny himself . If he has begun the good work of faith in us he will finish it just as he promises. Its why we are called "new creatures" because that is what we are.

I would think because it is oblivious we had nothing to do with our first birth why would we think we have something to do with our new birth?

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
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Don't do as the foolish Galatian's and beive they the faith to belive Christ came from their own selves
I'm not sure what you're talking about but faith is just faith. Everyone has faith. The object of their faith is what makes the difference.
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,144
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John 6:65 doesn't negate man's choice. "Come" requires a choice; you choose to either come or not come. "Can come" bears out the ability the unsaved person has to come. Everyone who has heard and has learned of the Father comes to Jesus. Hearing and learning are also choices that a person makes. No one can come to Jesus without paying attention to what the Father has been saying.
What about the part that says "unless the Father draws him" don't get me wrong,I agree with what you said but for the sake of the listener,explain In easy to understand words what "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him"means so that the scriptures do not sound contrary to each other but they harmonize each other to show that It's a choice.:)
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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What about the part that says "unless the Father draws him" don't get me wrong,I agree with what you said but for the sake of the listener,explain In easy to understand words what "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him"means so that the scriptures do not sound contrary to each other but they harmonize each other to show that It's a choice.:)
Yet many have seemingly made that choice to follow Christ, but still can't seem to find the right path. It shows that traditional Christianity has gone off course so much that nobody knows exactly how to serve God and piece the scriptures together to show us that path. If Jesus showed up at our mainstream churches today, I believe it would be just like the temple under the Pharisees. :cool:
 
Oct 12, 2012
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Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?)

As I chose, God chose us in your poll i would like to thank there is something that can qualify between the two choosings! I would say God chooses us in the metaphysical realm which could be accounted for in many ways, and we choose or hear Him in the physical or conciousous realm which. This is a hard question but by faith we believe His Word; both are in play but God is the greater and in some way must make Himself known to the lesser. Either by His Word, a testimony, a voice in a bush etc............ Just putting it out there! 😋 TKS great question

I have gotten a debate in person and online recently about this.
Do you believe we are predestined to be saved, as if God chose us before our existence and planned to save us or do you believe it's up to us alone to choose him or do you believe he tries to choose us but leaves the final answer up to us?

With whatever you believe, there are these common sayings I get in response when they debate.

if you believe he chooses in us and we can't avoid him and being saved because we are predestined, then isn't us choosing him forced on us and not wanting him by free will and doesn't that seem like he didn't really die for everyone because he isn't choosing the rest of the world to save them?

if you believe it is entirely up to us, then does that mean in our sinful nature we have good desires to do what is right without God in us to give us those desires before salvation?

Or if you believe he makes us want to as if he gives us the strength and desires to want to be saved, but we can still choose to live in sin and not be saved? That it is up to us in the end?

I have not given my answer here on this poll, but I'd like to hear yours and I may share mine.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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Ok well, still think its both but God chooses first, we just choose to accept or reject his offer.

It would be silly to refuse, but God doesnt give up on us.
God knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will accept him and those who will reject him. Also those who will think works proves they are saved. The concept of grace being a free gift is a foreign concept for them. They think they have to earn it with works. Jesus at judgement will tell them "Begone I never knew you."
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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Yet many have seemingly made that choice to follow Christ, but still can't seem to find the right path. It shows that traditional Christianity has gone off course so much that nobody knows exactly how to serve God and piece the scriptures together to show us that path. If Jesus showed up at our mainstream churches today, I believe it would be just like the temple under the Pharisees. :cool:
A lot of what you are seeing is the fact that most churches are served by secular ministers. Only independent churches and the much smaller gospel preaching denominations are served by Christian ministers. Only a small fraction of the people in the US are Christians. God in the past has used total eclipses crossing a country east to west to condemn it. One already crossed east to west in the continental US and another one in 2024 will cross from New England to Southern California. Crossing 7 cities named Salem and making I big X on the US. The US is thus condemned.

The awesome foreknowledge of God to set the moon in orbit to have done these eckipses
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
What about the part that says "unless the Father draws him" don't get me wrong,I agree with what you said but for the sake of the listener,explain In easy to understand words what "no man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him"means so that the scriptures do not sound contrary to each other but they harmonize each other to show that It's a choice.:)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The Father draws people with teaching. The teaching is available to all. Those who choose to listen and learn come to Jesus because Jesus is what the Father is teaching.

The Father teaches via the Scriptures: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
("To search or not search" is another choice an unsaved person can and does make.)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
Yet many have seemingly made that choice to follow Christ, but still can't seem to find the right path. It shows that traditional Christianity has gone off course so much that nobody knows exactly how to serve God and piece the scriptures together to show us that path. If Jesus showed up at our mainstream churches today, I believe it would be just like the temple under the Pharisees. :cool:
What do you believe is wrong for example? How to do it right?
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
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God chose us, but we have a choice in our salvation, for God's kingdom is love, and He is not evil to condemn people that did not have a choice to choose salvation.

If God chooses who will be saved without their choice then they accepted the truth because they could see no other alternative.

Then God's kingdom is not true love, and their faith is not real, and their love is not real, and their hope is not real, and their confessing Jesus is not real, and their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them, but God.

You can program your computer to say, I love you when it starts up, but does your computer really love you.

To say that God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choose, it an offense to God, and I believe it is blasphemy against the Spirit, because God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light (Jesus), which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The Bible plainly states that God wants all people to be saved.

When the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world, but that salvation is to whoever accept it, like the Lamb was slain, and the prophets blood shed, from the foundation of the world, although they were future events, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many are called, but few are chosen, and if God chooses who will be saved, and who cannot be saved, then why is God calling people that cannot be chosen.

God does the calling, and choosing, on earth.

Which if OSAS is true as they believe it then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would not make sense for God to work in the lives He did not choose.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, so God is working in their lives.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No person comes to Jesus, and confesses Him as Savior, unless the Father draws them, so God is working in their lives.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

No person says Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, unless it comes from the Father, so God is working in their lives.

Which we know people that believe OSAS, and people that say we can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and sin does affect our relationship with God, both claim these things, so God called them, and is working in their lives.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The Lord knows them that are His having this seal, and this is how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Many are called, but few are chosen, because some people held unto sin, and perished in their sins, for they thought they were alright with God despite enjoying sins.

Not saying we might not sin after receiving the Spirit, but we have to have the proper attitude that sin does affect our relationship with God, and will get rid of the sin and move forward.

God chose us, we did not choose Him, and when God calls us He will work in our life to get us to realize the truth, but when we get to the truth we have to make the decision to go through the door, for God's kingdom is love, but we would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in our life, for the flesh would of not permitted it.

And this truth is to realize that if we hate sin, and do not want sin, by the Spirit we can abstain from sin, and sin does affect our relationship with God, and are willing to be Christlike representing goodness, and when we abide by this truth, and not make excuses, then we are chosen, and have the proper perspective of God's ways.

For where 2 come together they are one, and when we receive the Spirit we are one with God, and that means we have to be compatible with the operation of the Spirit, for the Spirit is not going to be corrupt like the flesh.

Not everybody does that which is the majority of people, for many are called, but few are chosen.

Pro 30:11 There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.

Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Pro 30:13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.

Pro 30:14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

They think they are right with God, for they are pure in their own eyes, but not washed away from their filthiness, and at the last generation they will be worse.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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What about the part that says "unless the Father draws him"...
When the Gospel is preached, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together to draw sinners to the Savior.

That does NOT mean that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation. But every person must respond to the Gospel, and obey the commands to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
What do you believe is wrong for example? How to do it right?
Nothing is wrong. Everything is going just as God planned it. This includes the deception to mainstream Christianity. Things have not, nor will they ever get out of control. Remember the Lord's Prayer: Thy kingdom come; thy will be done in heaven as on earth. If scripture seems to puzzle us, let us ask God for wisdom: He won't scold us for asking.

James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,144
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Yet many have seemingly made that choice to follow Christ, but still can't seem to find the right path. It shows that traditional Christianity has gone off course so much that nobody knows exactly how to serve God and piece the scriptures together to show us that path. If Jesus showed up at our mainstream churches today, I believe it would be just like the temple under the Pharisees. :cool:
It's a possibility that churches would be like the temple under Pharisees because many that move up to a seat of power should be sitting on the floor but nevertheless GOD will manifest the truth and whatever Is hidden will be revealed and the right people will move up and the truth marches on.:)
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,144
1,806
113
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The Father draws people with teaching. The teaching is available to all. Those who choose to listen and learn come to Jesus because Jesus is what the Father is teaching.

The Father teaches via the Scriptures: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
("To search or not search" is another choice an unsaved person can and does make.)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Everyone deep down knows there Is a GOD and no one can come to GOD not In TRUTH because GOD looks at the heart so then a person can't come to GOD because the preacher said repeat these words and now you are saved because GOD sees the heart and would know If you are true.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
Everyone deep down knows there Is a GOD and no one can come to GOD not In TRUTH because GOD looks at the heart so then a person can't come to GOD because the preacher said repeat these words and now you are saved because GOD sees the heart and would know If you are true.
I agree that a person doesn't get saved by superficially reciting a verbal formula.
Psalm 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. 19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
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I agree that a person doesn't get saved by superficially reciting a verbal formula.
Psalm 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. 19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
John 3:16 AMPC spells it out clearly. Notice what comes after "believes in".

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
What do you believe is wrong for example? How to do it right?
All of the large protestant denominations are secular. Starting in the 1880s secular people went to seminaries to become ministers even though the didn't believe. They were after getting access to the church money. They avoid denominations where the deacons control the money. Presbyterian PCA and RCA are examples. Was a deacon and elder in 3 churches of these denominations. Moved twice. Deacons allot the money through deacon led committees. Elder committees look to help people with spiritual needs. When the elders see a financial need they bring in an appropriate deacon to take the issue to the appropriate committee.
 
Dec 9, 2011
14,144
1,806
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All of the large protestant denominations are secular. Starting in the 1880s secular people went to seminaries to become ministers even though the didn't believe. They were after getting access to the church money. They avoid denominations where the deacons control the money. Presbyterian PCA and RCA are examples. Was a deacon and elder in 3 churches of these denominations. Moved twice. Deacons allot the money through deacon led committees. Elder committees look to help people with spiritual needs. When the elders see a financial need they bring in an appropriate deacon to take the issue to the appropriate committee.
Hopefully someone with GODly discernment In the committee will be aware when someone Percieved In need of financial help really needs It.:)
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
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My thoughts on this are like the thoughts of many, they go on and on. I think the answer, like all other answers, is found in Him....

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
1 Corinthians 1:30 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.1.30.NASB
Yes, by HIS DOING. Predestined, not of your will but HIS WILL.