POLL: The Deity of Christ

[Elin]

What in Paul's view did learning spiritual truth rely on, the academic mind or the holy spirit?
In what strength did Paul preach, his own or the holy spirits?

1cor1:19-22. 1cor3:19-22

The problem is not in having a great academic mind, but relying on it to learn spiritual truth 1cor2:12-14

Areed. . .your point?

Or are you just stating the obvious?

 

[Elin]

Spiritual truth is learnt from the holy spirit. The holy spirit could reveal to a child-if he chose to do so the truth of what Paul wrote, or do you deny this?

I deny that Jesus is saying that the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.

It was Jesus who said God had revealed these things to children and hidden them from the wise and learned. Jesus also said unless you come as children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
Yes most certainly afew scholars and theologians affects the majority of churches in the known world. But
Paul warned us of such didn't he 1cor1:19-21

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?

 

[Elin]

BTW

The ignorant and unsteadfast are those who rely on their own ability to learn of the spiritual, rather than relying on the holy spirit to reveal truth to them

Marvelous grasp of the obvious. . .

 

[Elin]

I do not know how to make this any clearer Elin. Obviously you are going to need some time to digest all of this.

I haven't yet read your previous explanation. . .won't be able to get to it till later.

But my problem is not understanding why Ac 13:33 cannot mean what I present, and my point not being addressed.

 

[senzi]

I deny that Jesus is saying that the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.


And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?

Do you understand romans Elin? Read ch7:7-11 KJV and give me your understanding of what those verses are saying ALL of them. I dont believe you will

 

[valiant]

Do you understand romans Elin? Read ch7:7-11 KJV and give me your understanding of what those verses are saying ALL of them. I dont believe you will

they are talking about Paul's preconversion experience

 

[senzi]

I deny that Jesus is saying that the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.


And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?

From a spiritual perspective you seem to find it hard to grasp much truth. Rightly dividing the word in this instance, is Paul speaking and warning against the scholar and theologian from the point of view of those with good academic minds relying on those minds to learn of the spiritual, rather than relying on the holy spirit to learn spiritual truth-as Paul did. They then come up with wonderful sounding doctrines that contradict the message of the Gospel. Many do this.

 

[senzi]

they are talking about Paul's preconversion experience

I hope elin, if she chooses to address them goes further than that. I would like her opinion and explanation of what Paul is saying in those verses in detail, and the spiritual message for christians in them. Not a few words summing them up as you have. That does not address what is being stated, or the truth to be gleaned from them

 

[senzi]

I deny that Jesus is saying that the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.



Do you ever rightly divide the word?

Do you believe Jesus statements were aimed at three year olds?

I am sure you have a far greater academic mind than mine. So I would welcome, you or old hermit giving me the full spiritual explanation of rom7:7-11.

 

[Elin]

I deny that Jesus is saying the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.

It was Jesus who said God had revealed these things to children and hidden them from the wise and learned. Jesus also said unless you come as children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
Yes most certainly afew scholars and theologians affects the majority of churches in the known world. But Paul warned us of such didn't he 1cor1:19-21

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?

Do you understand romans Elin?
Read ch7:7-11 KJV and give me your understanding of what those verses are saying ALL of them. I dont believe you will

And what does this have to do with three-year olds?

Having shown that we have died to the law--been delivered from its curse,
and that we are by that death freed from the law as a covenant,
as a wife is freed from obligation to her husband when he dies;
and that the law is dead to us in its power to provoke sin and to curse us,
because of our marriage to and union with Christ, Paul shows
that even though the law provokes to sin (v.5), the law is not sin.

The law reveals and forbids sin,
because the natural tendency of unregenerate man is to desire what is forbidden,
which causes separation from God and eternal death.
Apart from the law, sin is not fully perceived, sin being so natural to unregenerate man.

Apart from the law unregenerate man thinks he is alive, until he comes to the realization that he stands guilty of sin before the law and is condemned to death, because the wages of sin is death.

So in actuality, not in its nature, instead of giving life, the law brought condemnation, and
instesd of producing holiness, it provoked sin, because of the unregenerate nature of man.

So the law itself is
holy--the will of a holy God,
just--in dealing equally and rightly with all, and
good--produces good in the order of men.

However now, the law is no longer a covenant with God's people.
Since the death of Christ, God' people are in a new covenant (Lk 22:20) of grace, not law.
In that new covenant, the two laws of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Jas 2:8)
are the pattern of holy living according to God's law (1Co 9:21).

And this has what to do with three-year olds?

 

[Elin]

I deny that Jesus is saying that the Father reveals such as Paul writes in Romans to three-year olds.

It was Jesus who said God had revealed these things to children and hidden them from the wise and learned. Jesus also said unless you come as children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven
Yes most certainly afew scholars and theologians affects the majority of churches in the known world. But
Paul warned us of such didn't he 1cor1:19-21

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?[/quote]

From a spiritual perspective
you seem to find it hard to grasp much truth. Rightly dividing the word in this instance,
is Paul speaking and warning against the scholar and theologian from the point of view of those with good academic minds
relying on those minds to learn of the spiritual,

No, he is referring to humanly-devised philosophical systems such as employed
by the Greek sophists and Gentile philosophers, and perhaps to the Jewish teachers of prophecy (1Co 1:22).

 

[Elin]

It is clear that you are having some trouble trying to get your mind wrapped around this text in Acts 13 so why don't we just start here at the beginning and take a look at this verse to just see what the language of the text has to tell us.
Forget about what is considered "orthodox", forget about what you may have read in commentaries

Well, actually, my understanding comes from the connection I see among Mt 1:20; Jn 8:42, 16:27, 28, 17:8; Ro 1:4; Heb 1:5, 5:5; 1Jn 5:18.
Your understanding was new to me, not according to the creed, so I checked into some sources to see what I could find, and did not find that explanation there.
So the source of my problem is the understanding I have of the connection of the above Scriptures.

and let's just look at what the text says. Truth is in the grammatical structure of the inspired text, not in the "orthodoxy" of theological history.

“When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. But God raised Him from the dead; and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’ “As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.’ “Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.’ “For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay; but He whom God raised did not undergo decay."

The topic of Paul's oration is the death and resurrection of Jesus as he offers his defense to the Jew in the synagogue at Antioch. Notice, Paul says that the crucifixion marked the fulfillment of "ALL that was written concerning Him."

But all regarding his burial wasn't carried out at the crucifixion.
"And when they finished all things having been written concerning him, they took him down from the tree. . ."

I understand that to mean that when they finished all that was written regarding his crucifixion, they took him down from the tree and buried him in a tomb, which then fulfilled the rest which was written concerning his burial (which difference has no real bearing here).

And the promise was Gen 12:3, of the Messiah through whom all the nations would be blessed.
There was no fulfilling the promise of his blessing to all the nations until Jesus rose from the dead,
when the promise of Ge 12:3 was then fulfilled, which is what I understand Paul to be saying there.

He then speaks of the promise that was made to the fathers. Although he does not specifically say it here the promise he is speaking of is, "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." This promise could not be fulfilled except in the resurrection of the Lord, "in that He raised up Jesus". Paul covers this in Gal 3 and in verses 13-14 he says. "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." He then adds the second Psalm, "as it is also written in the second Psalm...." Here God makes a declaration to the Son that is time bound as is designated by the use of "today". This marks a specific point in linear time in which the fulfillment of this declaration would become reality

I just don't see Ps 2:7 as referring to linear time, I see it as referring to the everlasting now of eternity.

And I don't think Paul was using Ps 2:7 to point to a specific point in linear time.
I think he was stating that the resurrection was proof of Ps 2:7, that Jesus of Nazareth was that begotten Son of God.

but, there is no way for us to know what "today" points to by just a reading of this Psalm. It is Paul who gives us the revelation from the Holy Spirit that explains for us the application of this Psalm. Paul then reveals what was to happen on that day, "I have begottenyou." This brings us to two questions.
1. What is the specific point in linear time that this was fulfilled? And Paul says it was indeed fulfilled.
2. What does he mean when he says "I have begottenyou" within the limitations of time established by Paul?

My friend, I just don't think I can go any further until I am able to see that my understanding cannot be correct.

So. . .I thank you for all your kind effort in trying to help me get there, but it seems I have an immovable object in my path--an understanding that must first be unseated, and which for me requires seeing that it cannot be correct.
You have been a good friend and done a yeoman's job, but I'm stuck where I am.

So thanks again.

Both questions are answered in the very next two application of OT scriptures. “I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David," and “You will not let your Holy One see corruption." Paul links both of these tests to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead just like he did the two previous passages for the Psalmist. He is not talking about Jesus birth, he is not talking about Solomon, and he is not talking about David. Paul is showing us that the RESURRECTION OF JESUS is the fulfillment of all of the passages he presents. It is the resurrection that satisfies the point in linear time that was veiled in the Psalm.

Now Let me see if I can help you understand the word begotten as it is used on this text. Here are all the definitions of γεγέννηκά regardless of the form of the verb. The word is from the root γεννά meaning to bear children, to father, to conceive, to engender, to cause to rise, to give birth, or to produce. These represent the basic definitions of the word

and are used in both the literal sense and in the metaphorical sense in scripture. γεγέννηκά, used here by Paul is perfect, indicative, active form of γεννά and means "I have begotten." Now, we have already established that Paul is not talking about Jesus' birth or any other point in his life so this means that the literal definition cannot be applied which means that the only other option for understand γεγέννηκά has to be in the metaphorical sense. Now, I am simply going to ask you the question and let you think about this for a moment, in what sense then could the metaphorical use of this verb apply to the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[senzi]

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?

No, he is referring to humanly-devised philosophical systems such as employed
by the Greek sophists and Gentile philosophers, and perhaps to the Jewish teachers of prophecy (1Co 1:22).[/QUOTE]

Paul was referring to religious people who would earnestly study the scriptures, that is obvious, but he would not ask where is the wise nan, where is the scholar etc concerning people in humility seeking to follow after the holy spirit into truth, that is also obvious

 

[senzi]

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?


And what does this have to do with three-year olds?

Having shown that we have died to the law--been delivered from its curse,
and that we are by that death freed from the law as a covenant,
as a wife is freed from obligation to her husband when he dies;
and that the law is dead to us in its power to provoke sin and to curse us,
because of our marriage to and union with Christ, Paul shows
that even though the law provokes to sin (v.5), the law is not sin.

The law reveals and forbids sin,
because the natural tendency of unregenerate man is to desire what is forbidden,
which causes separation from God and eternal death.
Apart from the law, sin is not fully perceived, sin being so natural to unregenerate man.

Apart from the law unregenerate man thinks he is alive, until he comes to the realization that he stands guilty of sin before the law and is condemned to death, because the wages of sin is death.

So in actuality, not in its nature, instead of giving life, the law brought condemnation, and
instesd of producing holiness, it provoked sin, because of the unregenerate nature of man.

So the law itself is
holy--the will of a holy God,
just--in dealing equally and rightly with all, and
good--produces good in the order of men.

However now, the law is no longer a covenant with God's people.
Since the death of Christ, God' people are in a new covenant (Lk 22:20) of grace, not law.
In that new covenant, the two laws of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Jas 2:8)
are the pattern of holy living according to God's law (1Co 9:21).

And this has what to do with three-year olds?

It has nothing to do with three year olds, as Jesus stating the truth had been revealed to little children had nothing to do with three year olds. But tell me, is it possible un you view for the holy spirit to enlighten a ten year old to understand romans?

BTW

The law God desires a person to keep remains, it is placed on the heart and written in the mind of the convert-not just two commands are placed within the christian. That law is fulfilled by love. The law remains, the penalty for breaking it is removed.
Hence:

Do we nullify the law by this faith? Not at all, rather we uphold the law Rom3:31

 

[senzi]

And Paul was one. . .go figure.

Do you ever rightly divide the word?


And what does this have to do with three-year olds?

Having shown that we have died to the law--been delivered from its curse,
and that we are by that death freed from the law as a covenant,
as a wife is freed from obligation to her husband when he dies;
and that the law is dead to us in its power to provoke sin and to curse us,
because of our marriage to and union with Christ, Paul shows
that even though the law provokes to sin (v.5), the law is not sin.

The law reveals and forbids sin,
because the natural tendency of unregenerate man is to desire what is forbidden,
which causes separation from God and eternal death.
Apart from the law, sin is not fully perceived, sin being so natural to unregenerate man.

Apart from the law unregenerate man thinks he is alive, until he comes to the realization that he stands guilty of sin before the law and is condemned to death, because the wages of sin is death.

So in actuality, not in its nature, instead of giving life, the law brought condemnation, and
instesd of producing holiness, it provoked sin, because of the unregenerate nature of man.

So the law itself is
holy--the will of a holy God,
just--in dealing equally and rightly with all, and
good--produces good in the order of men.

However now, the law is no longer a covenant with God's people.
Since the death of Christ, God' people are in a new covenant (Lk 22:20) of grace, not law.
In that new covenant, the two laws of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; Ro 13:8, 9, 10; Jas 2:8)
are the pattern of holy living according to God's law (1Co 9:21).

And this has what to do with three-year olds?

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

Christ is not the end of the law full stop, but unto righteousness.
Therefore Jesus died to pay the penalty of your sin, he did not die to do away with the law.

You need to rightly divide the word

 

[Pumicestone]

You won't stay here long advocating this type of nonsense.

I said, "The softly spoken words of the wise." You need not bother.
This will be my final response to ANY post you make so rave on as you will.

When they resort to threats and insults ... you know you've 'em beaten !



And how about this for the epitome of arrogance ?! Only the Holy Hermit has a direct link with the Holy Spirit !

I do not care about all of this.
What I am saying is that I am getting tired of seeing you try to discredit someone's education, intelligence, or higher level of understand of something simply because you do not understand what they are talking about and then claiming that you get your understanding directly from the H.S when what you believe bears absolutely no resemblance to how scripture represents the nature of God.

 

[purgedconscience]

I just don't see Ps 2:7 as referring to linear time, I see it as referring to the everlasting now of eternity.

And I don't think Paul was using Ps 2:7 to point to a specific point in linear time.
I think he was stating that the resurrection was proof of Ps 2:7, that Jesus of Nazareth was that begotten Son of God.

My friend, I just don't think I can go any further until I am able to see that my understanding cannot be correct.

So. . .I thank you for all your kind effort in trying to help me get there, but it seems I have an immovable object in my path--an understanding that must first be unseated, and which for me requires seeing that it cannot be correct.

Hi Elin.

The entire second Psalm is both prophetic and linear in that it progresses from one stage to another in a sequential series of steps in relation to its fulfillment. I've tried to shy away from long posts on this forum, but I honestly believe that this issue is never going to be rightly resolved in your own heart and mind unless such a prophetic, linear sequence of events can be clearly shown to you and that seems to be what you just suggested, so I'm going to show such a prophetic, linear sequence now by letting the scriptures themselves give us the clear revelation of the same. Please forgive me for the length of this post or for the lengths of these posts because I'm figuring, from the outset, that what I have to say is not going to be able to be confined to one single post because of its volume. If multiple posts are required, then please read them together as a whole in case somebody else's post appears somewhere between my own posts. I'd much prefer to simply sit across a table from you and politely and civilly discuss these things face to face, but I have to make the best of what opportunities are actually presented to me in this life. Again, I apologize for the inevitable length of what follows, but I assure you that it won't be boring reading for anybody who loves the Word of God as you seem to. Let's begin:

Psalm 2 verses 1 thru 3

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

This first prophecy was fulfilled at a specific point in time and the Bible tells us exactly when that was:

Acts chapter 4 verses 23 thru 28

And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

When David penned the second Psalm under Divine inspiration, he foresaw, by the Spirit, the specific time in history when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel would gather together against both the LORD, God the Father, and His anointed or His Christ, Jesus Christ, to bring to pass the fulfillment of what he had prophesied or to bring to pass the fulfillment of that which God's hand and counsel had before determined to be done and this was fulfilled in direct relation to Christ's crucifixion as we just finished reading. This prophetic, linear Psalm continues:

Psalm 2 verses 4 thru 6

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

David, still under Divine inspiration, now begins to prophetically describe God's response to the ragings, vain imaginings and counsels of those who have plotted together against both Him and His Christ in relation to Christ's crucifixion. God derisively laughs at such vain imaginings and speaks unto the participants in His wrath and sore displeasure which is more fully explained later on in this Psalm and tells them, Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. In other words, God tells them that although they have banded together and crucified Christ, Christ will yet be God's appointed King upon His holy hill of Zion. How can this be? How can the crucified Christ yet be God's appointed King Who will rule upon His holy hill of Zion? Well, the answer is given unto us in the very next verse:

Psalm 2 verse 7

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Here, we are all privileged to listen in on a conversation between both Jesus Christ and God the Father. Yes, Jesus is the I Who is declaring the decree which the LORD, God the Father, has said unto me or Him. What then is the decree? It is this:

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

In other words, the crucified Christ is yet going to be God's appointed King upon His holy hill of Zion because God prophetically declared that Jesus Christ would be begotten or raised from the dead in a linear sequence of events after Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles and the people of Israel had plotted together in vain in relation to His crucifixion. As has already been shown to you by more than one person here, the Apostle Paul told us exactly at what point in time this precise prophecy and promise was fulfilled:

Acts chapter 13 verses 26 thru 37

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
But God raised him from the dead:
And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

In his discourse, the Apostle Paul began by explaining how that they which dwell at Jerusalem and their rulers or how that the Gentiles and the children of Israel whom we read about earlier fulfilled what had been written of Christ in relation to His crucifixion when they desired of Pilate that He should be slain. This didn't fulfil all that had been written in relation to Christ however and Paul continued on to explain how that the promise which God had made unto the fathers in relation to Christ's resurrection from the dead was fulfilled in a linear sequence of events, even as Paul described himself in what we just read, on the literal day when Christ was begotten or on the literal day when Christ was raised from the dead when God did not allow His Holy One to see corruption. It's right before your eyes, Elin. I pray that God helps you to see and embrace the same.

The prophetic, linear second Psalm continues:

Psalm 2 verse 8

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

We're still priviliged here to be listening in on a conversation between God the Father and Jesus His Son in which the Father tells Jesus to ask of Him and He shall give Jesus the heathen or the nations for His inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession. When did Jesus come to the place in linear, sequential history or time where He could rightly be told of such an inheritance? Again, the scriptures provide for us the answer to this question:

Hebrews chapter 1 verses 1 thru 5

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Jesus was appointed heir of all things by the Father at a specific point in time in linear history and we just read at what point in time that was. It was when Jesus by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than the angels and that, again, was on the literal day in linear history when God the Father said unto Jesus, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee or on the day when Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. Again, here is when Christ obtained a more excellent name than the angels:

Philippians chapter 2 verses 5 thru 11

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus, although possibly not always known by that name in eternity past, is God from eternity past. Yes, He has always been in the form of God, but at a specific point and time in linear history, at His Incarnation, specifically, the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, John chapter 1 verse 14, and this is precisely what Paul was referring to here. When Jesus made himself of no reputation and took upon Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men, He actually made Himself a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death as is described for us in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 9. In other words, although He was always God from eternity past and although He is actually the Person of the Triune Godhead Who created the angels, at a specific point in time in linear history or at His Incarnation, Jesus humbled Himself and came to this earth and was found in fashion as a man or was found in a condition that was below that of the angels and it wasn't until the time that Jesus was raised from the dead or until the day that He was begotten that He received by inheritance a more excellent name than they with the they being the angels. We need to understand the significance of the following:

I Timothy chapter 2 verses 5 and 6

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Our mediator is THE MAN Christ Jesus. Again, as I sought to explain to you once before, at a specific time in linear history, there was a change made in relation to the priesthood and that change was made on the day in which Jesus was begotten or on the day in which Christ was raised from the dead:

Hebrews chapter 5 verses 1 thru 6

For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Why did the writer of this epistle to the Hebrews link Psalm 2:7, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee to the time when Christ's everlasting Priesthood began? He did so because, again, our mediator is THE MAN Christ Jesus and although Jesus always existed as God He didn't always exist as a MAN. No, again, the Word was made flesh at a specific point in time in linear history somewhere approximately 2,000 years ago at the time of Christ's Incarnation and He could not have possibly begun His eternal Priesthood as THE MAN Christ Jesus prior to this point in time in linear history. For this precise reason, the writer of this epistle directly linked Psalm 2:7 and its fulfillment to the time when the priesthood changed or to the time when the Levitical priesthood was replaced with the everlasting Priesthood of THE MAN Christ Jesus. Do you understand what I'm saying? I hope that you do. Again, it was at this point in time in linear history that THE MAN Christ Jesus obtained by inheritance a more excellent name than the angels:

Ephesians chapter 1 verses 15 thru 23

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Yes, it wasn't until the the time that God raised Him from the dead that THE MAN Christ Jesus was raised far above all principality and power and might and dominion AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED or until this time that THE MAN Christ Jesus obtained by inheritance a name more excellent than the angels. Peter reiterated the same truth when he wrote:

I Peter chapter 3 verses 21 and 22

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Again, at the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ or on the day in linear history when THE MAN Christ Jesus was begotten, angels and authorities and powers were made subject unto Him in that He obtained by inheritance a more excellent name than they. Again, the same are now subject not only to the Word Who has always been God, but instead unto what we commonly call the God-Man and the Man part didn't go into effect until a specific point in time in linear history when THE MAN Christ Jesus became our mediator or when THE MAN Christ Jesus began His Priesthood and that specific point in time in linear history was the day in which Jesus was begotten or at the specific point in time in linear history when Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and this is precisely why Psalm 2:7 was cited by the New Testament writer in relation to the same. It's right there before us, Elin. I'm hoping that you're both seeing and embracing this as you read.

 

[purgedconscience]

Back to the second Psalm:

Psalm 2 verse 9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Although Jesus has been promised all things, Hebrews chapter 1 verse 2, and the heathen and the uttermost parts of the earth, Psalm 2 verse 8, as His inheritance, such an inheritance will not be fully claimed until the time of Christ's second coming. Jesus said:

Revelation chapter 2 verses 24 thru 27

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus told those in the church in Thyatira that they were to hold fast that which they had until He comes, so the timeframe here in relation to the promise that He's about to give them is the timeframe of His second coming. What then was the promise? Well, it was the same exact promise that God the Father gave unto Him way back in Psalm 2 verse 9 in relation to ruling the nations or the heathen with a rod of iron and dashing or breaking them in pieces or shivers like a potter's vessel. Yes, the hope of all Christians is that we will truly be joint-heirs with Christ, Romans chapter 8 verse 17, or that we will share His promised inheritance with Him at the time of His second coming and the time of the resurrection and glorification of the saints. Again, everything that we're reading is LINEAR:

Christ was crucified in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 1 thru 3 on a specific day in linear history approximately 2,000 years ago.

Christ will still be God's designated King upon His holy hill of Zion because God raised Jesus from the dead on the specific, literal day in linear history in which He was begotten in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 4 thru 7.

Christ will receive His promised inheritance of ruling over the heathen or the nations and the uttermost parts of the earth at His second coming on a literal day in linear history in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 8 and 9 and the saints will be joint-heirs with Christ at this specific point in time.

With these contextual, linear truths before us, both in their original settings within the second Psalm itself and as revealed and defined for us by the New Testament writers and Christ Himself, let's now finish out the second Psalm and how we should all be responding to such contextual, linear truths:

Psalm 2 verses 10 thru 12

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In light of the contextual, linear truths which were prophesied by David under Divine inspiration, the kings and judges of the earth are admonished to serve the LORD with fear and to rejoice with trembling and to kiss the Son or to wholeheartedly embrace Christ lest He be angry and they perish from the way when His wrath is kindled but a little. Yes, we should all be working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians chapter 2 verse 12, because there is a coming day in which the wrath of the Lamb, Revelation chapter 6 verses 16 and17, is going to be poured out and those who have opposed Him are going to be held accountable for the same. I've embraced Christ and put my trust in Him and I do serve the LORD with fear, although many here mock the same and deny that such should be a part of the Christian's life, and I also rejoice with trembling and not by merely singing some flippy songs while living in rebellion towards God. Hopefully, such is your testimony as well.

To recap, Psalm 2:7 in its original setting is clearly referring to the day in which Christ was raised from the dead or begotten and all of the citations of it in the New Testament point directly to the same exact literal day in linear history when Christ was raised from the dead or begotten. Again, it was on this literal day and not any supposed everlasting now of eternity like others teach and you've embraced up until now that THE MAN Christ Jesus obtained a more excellent name than the angels and that THE MAN Christ Jesus began His everlasting Priesthood. In your zeal for God, you've been ignorantly, I hope, espousing a heresy here, Elin. I'm sorry, but your currently held position is simply wrong in the light of God's Word. I've taken the time and expended the effort to show you how the term begotten is used in relation to Christ contextually in relation to Psalm 2:7 itself and in relation to the citations of the same in the New Testament. I'm hoping that my labor isn't in vain. There are many things that I was taught myself throughout my own lifetime which proved to be erroneous and heretical upon my own prayerful examination of scripture in context. When brought face to face with the same, I've repeatedly renounced and forsaken the previously held error and wholeheartedly embraced the actual truth of the scriptures rightly divided in spite of what orthodoxy might teach to the contrary. May the same be your testimony in relation to what we're presently discussing.

Thanks for reading.

 

[oldhermit]

Back to the second Psalm:

Psalm 2 verse 9

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Although Jesus has been promised all things, Hebrews chapter 1 verse 2, and the heathen and the uttermost parts of the earth, Psalm 2 verse 8, as His inheritance, such an inheritance will not be fully claimed until the time of Christ's second coming. Jesus said:

Revelation chapter 2 verses 24 thru 27

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Jesus told those in the church in Thyatira that they were to hold fast that which they had until He comes, so the timeframe here in relation to the promise that He's about to give them is the timeframe of His second coming. What then was the promise? Well, it was the same exact promise that God the Father gave unto Him way back in Psalm 2 verse 9 in relation to ruling the nations or the heathen with a rod of iron and dashing or breaking them in pieces or shivers like a potter's vessel. Yes, the hope of all Christians is that we will truly be joint-heirs with Christ, Romans chapter 8 verse 17, or that we will share His promised inheritance with Him at the time of His second coming and the time of the resurrection and glorification of the saints. Again, everything that we're reading is LINEAR:

Christ was crucified in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 1 thru 3 on a specific day in linear history approximately 2,000 years ago.

Christ will still be God's designated King upon His holy hill of Zion because God raised Jesus from the dead on the specific, literal day in linear history in which He was begotten in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 4 thru 7.

Christ will receive His promised inheritance of ruling over the heathen or the nations and the uttermost parts of the earth at His second coming on a literal day in linear history in fulfillment of Psalm 2 verses 8 and 9 and the saints will be joint-heirs with Christ at this specific point in time.

With these contextual, linear truths before us, both in their original settings within the second Psalm itself and as revealed and defined for us by the New Testament writers and Christ Himself, let's now finish out the second Psalm and how we should all be responding to such contextual, linear truths:

Psalm 2 verses 10 thru 12

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In light of the contextual, linear truths which were prophesied by David under Divine inspiration, the kings and judges of the earth are admonished to serve the LORD with fear and to rejoice with trembling and to kiss the Son or to wholeheartedly embrace Christ lest He be angry and they perish from the way when His wrath is kindled but a little. Yes, we should all be working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians chapter 2 verse 12, because there is a coming day in which the wrath of the Lamb, Revelation chapter 6 verses 16 and17, is going to be poured out and those who have opposed Him are going to be held accountable for the same. I've embraced Christ and put my trust in Him and I do serve the LORD with fear, although many here mock the same and deny that such should be a part of the Christian's life, and I also rejoice with trembling and not by merely singing some flippy songs while living in rebellion towards God. Hopefully, such is your testimony as well.

To recap, Psalm 2:7 in its original setting is clearly referring to the day in which Christ was raised from the dead or begotten and all of the citations of it in the New Testament point directly to the same exact literal day in linear history when Christ was raised from the dead or begotten. Again, it was on this literal day and not any supposed everlasting now of eternity like others teach and you've embraced up until now that THE MAN Christ Jesus obtained a more excellent name than the angels and that THE MAN Christ Jesus began His everlasting Priesthood. In your zeal for God, you've been ignorantly, I hope, espousing a heresy here, Elin. I'm sorry, but your currently held position is simply wrong in the light of God's Word. I've taken the time and expended the effort to show you how the term begotten is used in relation to Christ contextually in relation to Psalm 2:7 itself and in relation to the citations of the same in the New Testament. I'm hoping that my labor isn't in vain. There are many things that I was taught myself throughout my own lifetime which proved to be erroneous and heretical upon my own prayerful examination of scripture in context. When brought face to face with the same, I've repeatedly renounced and forsaken the previously held error and wholeheartedly embraced the actual truth of the scriptures rightly divided in spite of what orthodoxy might teach to the contrary. May the same be your testimony in relation to what we're presently discussing.

Thanks for reading.

Very concise, very well written. Good presentation.

 

[purgedconscience]

Very concise, very well written. Good presentation.

Paul prayed:

Ephesians chapter 1 verses 15 thru 23

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

God only knows how many times I've prayed the same for myself and others. If I truly have any understanding of these things, then to God be the glory. I've merely availed myself of that which is available to me by God's Spirit and I strongly encourage everybody else to do the same. In cases where God's Word and orthodoxy are at odd, may orthodoxy be damned. Jesus was not eternally begotten. Again, such is a self-refuting lie.