Pope tells gay man ‘God made you like this and loves you like this’

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preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
521
21
18
#21
Most protestants, when hearing the word "pope", get red eyes and grab their torches.

But when I think about the title (I did not read the newspaper article, though), I can imagine its OK, in some context.


Pope tells gay man:
God made you like this

Bible tells gay man:
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" R 9:20
"...God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts... for the degrading of their bodies with one another." R 1:24


Pope tells gay man:
God loves you like this

Bible tells gay man:
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." R 5:8

----

If we believe that God loves us with our sins, we should not be surprised that He loves also a gay person with the person´s sins.

t....,

That is a deliberate constructed violation of scriptures and it violates righteous law;

....."sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present".....

What does that mean to you?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,408
377
83
#22
Well I am not agree with the pope. But what is right is that God loves the sinner. ( as we all was) and he is hateing the sin. So I can say to an homosexual God loves you. But I should add, but he is not loving that you are practise homosexuality.
Actually the official position of the RCC is that HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are a very serious sin. So yes, God loves all sinners, and the pope should have also mentioned what his church teaches so that the man would be very clear, and the Catholic world would also that know that he upholds their church's position.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,384
490
83
#23
Most protestants, when hearing the word "pope", get red eyes and grab their torches.

But when I think about the title (I did not read the newspaper article, though), I can imagine its OK, in some context.


Pope tells gay man:
God made you like this

Bible tells gay man:
"Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" R 9:20
"...God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts... for the degrading of their bodies with one another." R 1:24



Pope tells gay man:
God loves you like this

Bible tells gay man:
"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Lk 19:10
"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." R 5:8

----

If we believe that God loves us with our sins, we should not be surprised that He loves also a gay person with the person´s sins.

I highlighted 2 points in red.

1. If I were to be picky, I would say your argument starts with the presupposition that homosexuality is an intrinsic and non-volitional state, rather than simply the expression of a volitional act.

2. I would also say you're presupposing a lot of specific meanings about the word "this" within the biblical expression "why did you make me like this"?


That's a lot to presuppose.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,506
177
63
#24
Trofimus vs Maxwel?

Rather than weigh in on this, I'll sell tickets and popcorn.

I highlighted 2 points in red.

1. If I were to be picky, I would say your argument starts with the presupposition that homosexuality is an intrinsic and non-volitional state, rather than simply the expression of a volitional act.

2. I would also say you're presupposing a lot of specific meanings about the word "this" within the biblical expression "why did you make me like this"?


That's a lot to presuppose.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,384
490
83
#25
Trofimus vs Maxwel?

Rather than weigh in on this, I'll sell tickets and popcorn.


And this is precisely why you fit so comfortably into politics.




For the record, my comment above to Trofimus wasn't intended to provoke a fight, but rather just to provoke a bit of thought.

The thought is this: we don't get an automatic win just because we post a clever bit of rhetoric
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,506
177
63
#26
Depends what you're trying to win. ;)

And this is precisely why you fit so comfortably into politics.

For the record, my comment above to Trofimus wasn't intended to provoke a fight, but rather just to provoke a bit of thought.

The thought is this: we don't get an automatic win just because we post a clever bit of rhetoric
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,384
490
83
#27
Depends what you're trying to win. ;)
LOL

Point taken.


Now let's shift the subject to apologetics for a moment.
This is exactly why the top selling atheist authors confuse so many college kids.
They make extremely clever rhetorical arguments which "seem" extremely persuasive... but they're all stuffed full of logical holes.
Since colleges don't teach much in the way of logic, and churches don't teach much in the way of apologetics, we end up in quite a mess.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,506
177
63
#28
Very true.

And they couple those logical holes with reductions, presumptions, and total lies.

LOL

Point taken.


Now let's shift the subject to apologetics for a moment.
This is exactly why the top selling atheist authors confuse so many college kids.
They make extremely clever rhetorical arguments which "seem" extremely persuasive... but they're all stuffed full of logical holes.
Since colleges don't teach much in the way of logic, and churches don't teach much in the way of apologetics, we end up in quite a mess.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,341
152
63
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#31
In politics don't we just say they misspoke?
Or as in the case of the pope . They will say “oh no this is what he meant” .
Followed by some gobeldegook . I have for some time thought that some religious leaders sound more
like politicians than servants of God .
Blessings
Bill
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,506
177
63
#32
Well...the Pope is really the hold-over from a political office in ancient Rome. If the sandal fits...

Or as in the case of the pope . They will say “oh no this is what he meant” .
Followed by some gobeldegook . I have for some time thought that some religious leaders sound more
like politicians than servants of God .
Blessings
Bill
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,384
490
83
#33
Or as in the case of the pope . They will say “oh no this is what he meant” .
Followed by some gobeldegook . I have for some time thought that some religious leaders sound more
like politicians than servants of God
.
Blessings
Bill

Well technically...

Vatican City is an independent state.


So I think that makes the Pope a politician in more than a metaphorical sense.


And the sandal fits.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
7,506
177
63
#34
Yeah, he's a richer, more powerful, less sexually active version of Mike Huckabee.

Well technically...

Vatican City is an independent state.


So I think that makes the Pope a politician in more than a metaphorical sense.


And the sandal fits.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,880
255
83
#35
Trofimus vs Maxwel?

Rather than weigh in on this, I'll sell tickets and popcorn.
lol....


Its ok, I am not expecially interested in this topic, I knew my post will provoke some responses, but still, I think that there is a view or context in which pope said truth.

Any possible discussion would probably lead into "Sovereignity and predetination" vs "free choice" convo.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,880
255
83
#36
t....,

That is a deliberate constructed violation of scriptures and it violates righteous law;

....."sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present".....

What does that mean to you?
It means probably nothing to me. Its unbiblical.

Sacrifice for forgiveness was given to sinners and we are still sinners until our physical death.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,301
60
48
#37
lol....


Its ok, I am not expecially interested in this topic, I knew my post will provoke some responses, but still, I think that there is a view or context in which pope said truth.

Any possible discussion would probably lead into "Sovereignity and predetination" vs "free choice" convo.
so you believe It is biblical to say that gay is not a sin?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,880
255
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#38
so you believe It is biblical to say that gay is not a sin?
To "be" a gay is not a sin. Its a deviation, a wrong inclination, a punishment.

To practice homosexuality is a sin.

IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
5,301
60
48
#39
To "be" a gay is not a sin. Its a deviation, a wrong inclination, a punishment.

To practice homosexuality is a sin.

IMHO.
to be gay is a punishment? Punishment from who, and what mistake that man do.

one steal and get 3 month jail time AS a punishment. Gay is punishment for what?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
8,880
255
83
#40
Gay is punishment for what?
For idolatry or possibly atheism, but generally said, for not worshiping true God in the right way.

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks... they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another."


R 1:20-24


And before you ask "how can it be, when somebody is gay from very young age and never worshipped any idol...", I do not think its about invidivuals. More about general population.