Postrib vs Dispy
- Thread starter randyk
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That is an excellent idea. I wish all pretribbers could digest it.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Digestion:
v.1 is about faith in Christ for salvation.
The passage was spoken to the 11 remaining disciples after Judas left. In v.2 Jesus was assurring the 11 that there was a place for them in heaven. Essentially teaching eternal security.
v.3 is frequently misread to think that Jesus was referring to coming back for believers and taking them to heaven.
But that's NOT what He said or meant. He was referring to His prophesied Second Advent by the words "I will come back". But pretribbers assume He will take them all to heaven, even though He didn't say that.
What He did say was "take you to be with Me so that you may be where I am". There is nothing about going to heaven in this passage, or in ANY of the rapture passages.
If Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, why are there no verses that make that clear?
Further, 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly shows the rapture (gathering) to occur at the Second Advent.
So there's that.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Digestion:
v.1 is about faith in Christ for salvation.
The passage was spoken to the 11 remaining disciples after Judas left. In v.2 Jesus was assurring the 11 that there was a place for them in heaven. Essentially teaching eternal security.
v.3 is frequently misread to think that Jesus was referring to coming back for believers and taking them to heaven.
But that's NOT what He said or meant. He was referring to His prophesied Second Advent by the words "I will come back". But pretribbers assume He will take them all to heaven, even though He didn't say that.
What He did say was "take you to be with Me so that you may be where I am". There is nothing about going to heaven in this passage, or in ANY of the rapture passages.
If Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, why are there no verses that make that clear?
Further, 2 Thess 2:1-3 clearly shows the rapture (gathering) to occur at the Second Advent.
So there's that.
Depart is the literal
Depart from the faith is implied.
In this debate it really serves neither side.
Why , because is says the man of sin, the ac, is revealed first, but the one " letting" is holding the trib back. The one letting is holding back the revealing of the ac.
Since it says "revealed", then the rapture, there is no postrib rapture anywhere in that dynamic
Postrib rapture is nowhere in the bible.
Zero verses pointing to it.
Depart from the faith is implied.
In this debate it really serves neither side.
Why , because is says the man of sin, the ac, is revealed first, but the one " letting" is holding the trib back. The one letting is holding back the revealing of the ac.
Since it says "revealed", then the rapture, there is no postrib rapture anywhere in that dynamic
Postrib rapture is nowhere in the bible.
Zero verses pointing to it.
Postribs will reframe it because they need us to never see heaven.
They invent a rapture with the saints getting on horses in the clouds and further inventing a uturn back to earth.
No heaven for them. They reject Jesus declaration and prophetic promise
....as well as rev 19 showing us already in heaven during the gt
.....and mounting horses there
, not in clouds.
They invent a rapture with the saints getting on horses in the clouds and further inventing a uturn back to earth.
No heaven for them. They reject Jesus declaration and prophetic promise
....as well as rev 19 showing us already in heaven during the gt
.....and mounting horses there
, not in clouds.
Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the love of many would wax could. Paul used this same word 'apostasia' when he wrote that in the last days many would depart from the faith. Historically, the apostasy was not interpreted to refer to some kind of rapture of the church. But rather to refer to the departing from the faith mentioned in other scriptures.
Let us consider further details Paul gives in this passage:
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
(NKJV)
So this individual is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' coming (parousia). Consider what else occurs at the Lord's coming (parousia).
I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV) (Bold emphasis mine.)
If this lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming and we are raptured at the Lord's coming, why does pre-trib set the rapture seven years before the Lord's coming. Nowhere does the Bible teach the rapture occurs seven years before the Lord's coming. Pre-trib comes from reading pre-trib into passages where it makes a whole lot more sense to just go with the plain reading of the text.
Consider also I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(NKJV)
Again, we see the resurrection at Christ's parousia/coming, not seven years before it.
I Thessalonians 1:10
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
You aren't explicit with your argument, but I am guessing your point is that bowls of wrath are poured out in the book of Revelation. Maybe you think God does not know how to aim. 'Wrath' has to do with anger. 'Wrath' is not a time period. Do you think God will have wrath against the tribulational saints, who overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony?
How is this an argument for pre-trib. At the second coming, Christ returns, the saints meet Him in the air and return with Him. I have read that the Roman empire used to have a 'parousia' for highly ranked officials. When the ambassador or other official came to town, the people of the city would go out to meet him and escourt him into the city.
Let us consider further details Paul gives in this passage:
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.
(NKJV)
So this individual is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' coming (parousia). Consider what else occurs at the Lord's coming (parousia).
I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV) (Bold emphasis mine.)
If this lawless one is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming and we are raptured at the Lord's coming, why does pre-trib set the rapture seven years before the Lord's coming. Nowhere does the Bible teach the rapture occurs seven years before the Lord's coming. Pre-trib comes from reading pre-trib into passages where it makes a whole lot more sense to just go with the plain reading of the text.
Consider also I Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(NKJV)
Again, we see the resurrection at Christ's parousia/coming, not seven years before it.
I Thessalonians 1:10
10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
You aren't explicit with your argument, but I am guessing your point is that bowls of wrath are poured out in the book of Revelation. Maybe you think God does not know how to aim. 'Wrath' has to do with anger. 'Wrath' is not a time period. Do you think God will have wrath against the tribulational saints, who overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony?
How is this an argument for pre-trib. At the second coming, Christ returns, the saints meet Him in the air and return with Him. I have read that the Roman empire used to have a 'parousia' for highly ranked officials. When the ambassador or other official came to town, the people of the city would go out to meet him and escourt him into the city.
Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
You gotta love those first FOUR words from Verse 29 [Immediately after the tribulation]!
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
You gotta love those first FOUR words from Verse 29 [Immediately after the tribulation]!
I really don't get you. Over and over ad nauseum you claim to "blow a hole" in Postrib arguments, when you don't even say anything of any import. Why is that? Are you just cheerleading anything and everything that you want to believe? Aren't we trying to get at the truth we can all sign onto?
How does Jesus sitting on a cloud "blow a hole" in Postrib arguments? All Postribs believe that Jesus is coming back with the clouds. I'm Postrib, and certainly believe that Jesus comes back "with the clouds of heaven." Who would deny that? Can you get rid of the phony rhetoric, and treat this a bit more seriously?
How does Jesus sitting on a cloud "blow a hole" in Postrib arguments? All Postribs believe that Jesus is coming back with the clouds. I'm Postrib, and certainly believe that Jesus comes back "with the clouds of heaven." Who would deny that? Can you get rid of the phony rhetoric, and treat this a bit more seriously?