Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

[fredoheaven]

United in Christ in time, when they are regenerated. One can't receive any eternal life until they are joined with Christ, because he is the source of their eternal life.

They were already elected, or marked out for salvation, from the foundation of the world by the Father. Jesus died for them, specifically. And the Holy Spirit regenerates them, joining them to Christ and applying all the benefits of salvation.

Salvation is a work of the Triune God.

I'm not sure where this came from, though.

So you really not sure that election is marking out for salvation and occurred "from the foundation of the world" or "...before the foundation of the world?" glad if your's be supported with the scripture. Anyway Ephesians 1:4


King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Is the verse really speaking of choosing us salvation or service? I believe it speaks of SERVICE. The Christian life requires holiness of course and it is before ordained that the child of God should walk in righteousness.

 

[Lightskin]

hi bro here is something i think about

if tulip is true. why doesnt God just grant everyone perfect repentance? they say its repentance the gift of God, you cant do it. why does God give such a terrible repentance to people then? half-way job. (or half- you know what[donkey] job).
that would proof tulip really well i think to everyone. but every reformed man and woman always say its progressive sanctification we are transformed slowly but why, if God gave us good heart, new creature and God does it all perfectly it should be walking like Jesus. not this half--youknowwhat[donkey] repentance.

mr @Lightskin i remember you said that you were given that nickname because most your friends are black. same for me my future wife is black too. and i just want to know is that your nickname because you are white or because you are lightskinned black. when i first saw that nickname i thought it was like one of those names that native americans have.

Hey brother, thanks for sharing. I always appreciate what you bring to CC. And to answer your question, I’m a White boy with swag. 😎

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The requirement is more specific than that. You must put your faith in the Son of God whom God raised from the dead.

And how does the natural man (1 Cor 2:14) who cannot discern the things of the Spirit do that? Until he has been born again of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2).

 

[cv5]

What is interesting is that when I carefully read your view of Reformed theology it is essentially and practically almost the same that I believe. Calvinists do not believe in "free will", yet you do believe in a certain amount of free choice for man. Yet your accusations against the "free will/Amininian" position show you do not really understand what we (or at least I ) believe. Your villianization of Charles Finney shows a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his position. To say a person is not a Christian because of doctrinal belief? Really? And that is exactly what you say above: "because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement" - that is all doctrinal positions - Salvation is not because of a correct knowledge or position on doctrine.

MacArthur is not mincing words...

https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=51916123100

https://www.oneplace.com/ministries...he-doctrine-of-absolute-inability-781363.html

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So are you saying that Jesus died for worldly things such as "government" and that is what he is going to raise up at the last day? When scriptures harmonize you have to use a little common sense to have them harmonize.

Depends on how you are defining "worldly"... I don't define the promised and prophesied earthly millennial kingdom as "worldly" (as we often think of the word "worldly"); it will indeed be the "throne of His glory" per Matthew 19:28 [see also Lk22:30,16,18] and Matthew 25:31-34 commencing at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. [so yes, "raised up AT THE LAST DAY" (not a 24-hr day")]

(see also Isaiah 24:21-23, esp v.23 ['reign... GLORIOUSLY' (i.e. Part 3 of "the Day of the Lord" time period)], where vv.21-22a are parallel time-wise with Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; and v.22b is further parallel with 1000 yrs "AFTER" that, at the GWTj time-slot, Rev20:11-15).

May I ask you, what is your viewpoint on the point-in-time that Acts 13:33 [Ps2:7; Heb1:5, 5:5] is speaking of, when it says, "TODAY I have begotten you" (when, or what thing, is this referring to)?

And he died for all that "those living" (born again) no longer should live to themselves (their old fleshly nature), but to the one having died for them (people, not things) and having been raised again.

Where a text refers to "people," yes; where it speaks of "things," then that.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I could place alongside that ^ , this:

Daniel 9:26a (fulfilled "after" Palm Sunday when the 69 Weeks total were concluded [when Jesus SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (re: the city), and DID the Zech9:9 thing (re: the city)]) -

"Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. […]"

[some versions have it as...]

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself. […]"




[Acts 3:21 "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."]

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Additionally, this is the tactic that free-willers use when their bullying doesn't work to silence a Reformed believer. They attempt to play the guilt card.

I am not submitting to free-willer bullying or guilting tactics, because then he will think he's right.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
(ESV)

I have submitted Scriptures to prove that unconditional election is true if you want to read them.

almost funny if you did not think so much of the apparent position you seem to think you occupy

again, your prayer of Spurgeon op is disgusting and nothing short of an attack on everyone who does not support what you say is the only truth...Calvin's truth

the prayer of Spurgeon that is supposed to be mimicking non-Calvinists is the invention of a sick mind IMO

and yet you use it to refute those who do not believe everyone is predestined to go either to hell or to heaven

you have a twisted idea of what others here believe and think it is fine to mock and bloviate about it and then have the nerve to state you are not submitting to free-willer bullying

you have not proven what Spurgeon and Calvin believed and your op suggests you cannot unless you are mocking and falling short of actually discussing the scripture you say you follow

you have proven you are blind to the many attempts of people here asking you why it is you think you have to slander, twist what others say, ignore scripture that is posted by stating no one offered scripture and sum it up by stating you are right because you said so

again, the op is sick to begin with and I knew of Spurgeon before but I had no idea he suffered from such a contemptable view of others who ARE saved but are not Calvinists

shame

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'm simply identifying the tactics that are being employed to silence me. If you don't like what I post, put me on ignore. I don't mind

I have a few people on ignore myself.

again, with the op as mocking and demeaning of non-Calvinists, and the fact you had to post it, knowing how nasty it is, you are not believeable

putting those who point out the obvious disagreeable nature of Spurgeons diatribe and who point out the confusing and unbiblical interpretation of Calvin's TULIP garden, does nothing but serve your ego

put a blindfold on a person and send them across a busy street. they will still have the same amount of cars to navigate as someone without the blindfold

kapiche?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

So you really not sure that election is marking out for salvation and occurred "from the foundation of the world" or "...before the foundation of the world?" glad if your's be supported with the scripture. Anyway Ephesians 1:4


King James Bible
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Is the verse really speaking of choosing us salvation or service? I believe it speaks of SERVICE. The Christian life requires holiness of course and it is before ordained that the child of God should walk in righteousness.

It's both.

The believer is specifically elected, and he is elected to belong to Jesus Christ and to be joined with him, and to produce spiritual fruit.

He isn't elected to live as a "lone ranger Christian". He is elected to produce fruit, and this largely relates to being a faithful witness as well as personal holiness.

1 Cor 1:26ff indicates that God chooses individuals who are not very smart, noble, or strong so his strength can be shown through weakness.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Until he has been born again of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2).

I do not believe Ephesians 2 can be used to be referring to "born again of the Holy Spirit," for "quickened-together-with [G4806 - synezōopoiēsen (one word)] Christ" is how the word is used in Eph2 (v.5), and Jesus Himself had no need of being "quickened" in THAT sense. (same in Col2:13).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This topic is why I think that I have a broader view of who the elect are than you do. I believe the scriptures to teach that if a person truly believes that there is a spiritual God and worships him, ( contrary to the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 ) that he is an elect child of God. You have not convinced me otherwise as of yet.

If someone doesn't know Jesus, they don't know the Father.

Believing that there is a spiritual God applies to Muslims or other theists who deny that Jesus is the Messiah, who deny the full deity of Jesus, and deny that he died a substitutionary death on the Cross.

1 John 2:22-23 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
(ESV Strong's)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Depends on how you are defining "worldly"... I don't define the promised and prophesied earthly millennial kingdom as "worldly" (as we often think of the word "worldly"); it will indeed be the "throne of His glory" per Matthew 19:28 [see also Lk22:30,16,18] and Matthew 25:31-34 commencing at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. [so yes, "raised up AT THE LAST DAY" (not a 24-hr day")]

(see also Isaiah 24:21-23, esp v.23 ['reign... GLORIOUSLY' (i.e. Part 3 of "the Day of the Lord" time period)], where vv.21-22a are parallel time-wise with Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; and v.22b is further parallel with 1000 yrs "AFTER" that, at the GWTj time-slot, Rev20:11-15).

May I ask you, what is your viewpoint on the point-in-time that Acts 13:33 [Ps2:7; Heb1:5, 5:5] is speaking of, when it says, "TODAY I have begotten you" (when, or what thing, is this referring to)?



Where a text refers to "people," yes; where it speaks of "things," then that.

John the baptist preached the kingdom of heaven is at hand and so did many in that day and time, even Jesus preached it also. I think that it was Timothy as he taught said "there be some standing here that will see Jesus return in his kingdom before they shall taste of death. The kingdom has reference to Christ's church and he has been reigning as king sense that time. There will be no thousand year kingdom on earth after it is burned up with a fervent heat following his second coming to gather his elect from the four winds of the earth, from one end to the other. There will be no big battle at his second coming. The battle you are confused over is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Empire.

 

[cv5]

John the baptist preached the kingdom of heaven is at hand and so did many in that day and time, even Jesus preached it also. I think that it was Timothy as he taught said "there be some standing here that will see Jesus return in his kingdom before they shall taste of death. The kingdom has reference to Christ's church and he has been reigning as king sense that time. There will be no thousand year kingdom on earth after it is burned up with a fervent heat following his second coming to gather his elect from the four winds of the earth, from one end to the other. There will be no big battle at his second coming. The battle you are confused over is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Empire.

Inadequate eschatology my friend. The complete picture includes a pre-trib rapture , Second Coming and battle at meggido , the setting up of the Kingdom, then a universal regeneration.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If someone doesn't know Jesus, they don't know the Father.

Believing that there is a spiritual God applies to Muslims or other theists who deny that Jesus is the Messiah, who deny the full deity of Jesus, and deny that he died a substitutionary death on the Cross.

1 John 2:22-23 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
(ESV Strong's)

Are you affirming that lying is not one of the sins that Jesus died for. Have we not all lied sometime or another? As you have stated that I believe some that have never heard the gospel have been born of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. Are we back to determining who the elect are and who they are not? Please have patience with me. I am just defending what I believe the scriptures to teach.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Inadequate eschatology my friend. The complete picture includes a pre-trib rapture , Second Coming and battle at meggido , the setting up of the Kingdom, then a universal regeneration.

It really boils down to the fact of who is harmonizing all of the scriptures, or not. We both think we are, thus, the reason this forum exists.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I do not believe Ephesians 2 can be used to be referring to "born again of the Holy Spirit," for "quickened-together-with [G4806 - synezōopoiēsen (one word)] Christ" is how the word is used in Eph2 (v.5), and Jesus Himself had no need of being "quickened" in THAT sense. (same in Col2:13).

I beg to differ. We are quickened together with Christ, in the fact that, at that time, his righteousness is imputed to us. Romans 8:1, There is no therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST JESUS. 1 John 3:4, And he that keepeth his commandments dewelleth in him, and he in him, and hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[cv5]

It really boils down to the fact of who is harmonizing all of the scriptures, or not. We both think we are, thus, the reason this forum exists.

I think it boils down to trying up all the loose ends. The view I posted does just that.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And how does the natural man (1 Cor 2:14) who cannot discern the things of the Spirit do that? Until he has been born again of the Holy Spirit (Eph 2).

GOD gave everyone sense knowledge and everyone has a conscience that knows someone created all this,sun moon stars planets ect...So then there Is no excuse,a person has a choice to believe In there heart or choose to reject.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

GOD gave everyone sense knowledge and everyone has a conscience that knows someone created all this,sun moon stars planets ect...So then there Is no excuse,a person has a choice to believe In there heart or choose to reject.

With your theory, why do some believe that things evolved instead of being created? My answer; they cannot discern the things of the Spirit because they have never been born spiritually, just as 1 Cor 14 plainly states.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Just thinking outloud...

I understand your frustrations with not wanting to be attacked, calling your faith demonic or your mind idiotic.

Also...

sure there are established relationships here. Obviously preference among men. But you will notice, those who agree with you, like you. It is the nature of the human beast. Those who do not, not so much. Humans are fickle, selective, selfish, prideful, and stubborn, that is why we ALL need a Savior.

I encourage you to truly forgive the ones who attacked your character or faith, be like stephen or our Christ, accept they know not what they do, and hold firm to the refuge that is Him.

With all that said, I still think the Gospel of Christ is what we should be focusing on, not the elect.

I spent a great deal of time recently, trying to understand the differences between Armenianism, Calvinism and Molism, for example.

I wanted to make sure I am at the right church, not to be sure I am saved for I believe and trust my Lord.

I now understand how folks can look at the same passages and come up with such different conclusions.

Let me just say, I think it best to be going to Him, leaning on Him is best, not weighing ourselves down with making sure we prove our position on election and predestination.

How does the serve the cause of Christ?

If folks feel they chose to believe, and you feel like He made us believe, does it matter? We believe. Praise His Holy Name...We Believe!!!! He is our King, all Praise and Glory to Him. He will present us blameless. He died for us all, His mercy supreme.

In Him, and in Him alone, we are elect, so lets just focus on Him.
He created us for good works, to be Holy and blameless, but only possible in Him.

If we love Him, seek Him, making Him the desire of our hearts, that is where we need to start and end, let Him work out the rest. Ours is merely to trust Him enough to keep on loving and forgiving, all with Him in mind.

I suppose, though, if we did that, so many threads would cease to be active or even cease to be.

Speaking for myself, it grieves me to see anyone belittling God in saying that he cannot accomplish all of his will by saying that God wants all mankind to be saved eternally, but does not have the power to accomplish it. Saying that man can accept or reject eternal life is belittling God's power. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou