Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

[ForestGreenCook]

Israel was not elected to salvation. Christians are.

Israel was a type of the Church. It was not the Church itself.

And, by the way, I have never implied someone else isn't elect. If their fruit isn't good, then there's a chance that they are not saved. However, that doesn't mean they aren't one of the elect, and even if they are, they may not be saved yet.

I personally don't like the word Calvinist. I am Reformed or monergistic. I believe God elects a certain group to salvation, and the atonement applies to them alone, and their salvation will be secured. I believe in a God who really saves, not just potentially saves. In other words, I don't believe in weak gods who cannot accomplish their will.

And, I believed that before I was saved I had to be "re-educated" by free-willers who believed in pathetic gods who may be able to save, but maybe not, too.

This is one insight that we are not on the same page with each other, and that is the understanding about Jacob's name being changed to be called Israel. You say that Israel was not elected to salvation, and that is true of the NATION of Israel, but Jacob (Israel) was elected to salvation. My hope is that you and I can discuss this topic further. Understanding the significance of Jacob being called Israel would improve the platform you stand on greatly. A great number of times that Israel is referenced in the scriptures, it as a reference to Jacob, who is representative of God's elect.

 

[garee]

in other words

god prevents the non elect from hearing, and makes sure the elect will respond

and you see nothing wrong with this?

thats the problem

If we made our own hearts soft rather than one newly created . I would see nothing wrong. I would think if God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases . He a can mercy by softening one person hearts and not the other.

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me: Job 23

For who has resisted his will? When my grandchildren do I simply pick them up a carry them . Why would someone think they could resist it ? He said he could raise up stones as children.

Who makes the heart of Arminian soft?

Romans 9:18-20 King James Version (KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Your cavalier attitude toward God is disconcerting. You confuse your will with the will of God. God is sovereign you are not. I see nothing in your post that indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit. No fruit of the Holy Spirit evident in your post as it reflects your theology.

I do not care what you prefer to call yourself you do not understand the grace of God.

You are not elect unto salvation. You are elect because you are saved. Just like Israel need to believe in God to be elect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Remarks concerning judging one’s salvation

Some on this site, including this individual, have claimed that I am prideful and intolerant of others that hold a different view on this topic. Others have claimed that I am not even a believer.

I expect this kind of juvenile behavior from chat rooms. I think they need to consider Jesus’ warning of Matthew 7:1-2. If you judge others (and I think it’s talking about their salvation), you need to watch out, because by the same standards you are judging someone, you will be judged.

I do not claim that others who disagree with me are unsaved. I don’t know about their salvation before God.

Regarding pridefulness, I would encourage all Christians to read books about pride and a lack of humility. I have read one within the last six months. Have you? You may be full of pride and not even know it, because sin is deceitful. The guy who claims he is not prideful is blind, because the moment you say that, you are demonstrating your pridefulness.

The particular book I would recommend is Humility: The Forgotten Virtue by Wayne Mack.

I think my particular approach, which is blunt, irks individuals from the anti-Reformed clique here. As a result, they are going to accuse me of anything they can.

Well, guess what? I am not above admitting that I am affected by pride at some level. Are you? If not, that’s a sign you are deceiving yourself, and are in fact infected with pride.

And I'm not backing down, so don't waste your time bullying me

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This is one insight that we are not on the same page with each other, and that is the understanding about Jacob's name being changed to be called Israel. You say that Israel was not elected to salvation, and that is true of the NATION of Israel, but Jacob (Israel) was elected to salvation. My hope is that you and I can discuss this topic further. Understanding the significance of Jacob being called Israel would improve the platform you stand on greatly. A great number of times that Israel is referenced in the scriptures, it as a reference to Jacob, who is representative of God's elect.

I believe Israel is a type of the Church, which is God's people. Additionally, I believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Joseph, and many others were part of the elect of God, called the "remnant".

However, I don't think the name change is directly relevant to being called.

Israel means "God contends". If you want to explain why that is relevant to election, let me know. It is possible. It is God that rules, and the doctrine of his sovereignty is the fundamental basis of Reformed theology.

 

[cv5]

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Self-Will

IMO the self willed are those spoken of in Matt 7:21-23.
Hard core Pentecostals and others please take heed.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I believe Israel is a type of the Church, which is God's people. Additionally, I believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Joseph, and many others were part of the elect of God, called the "remnant".

However, I don't think the name change is directly relevant to being called.

Israel means "God contends". If you want to explain why that is relevant to election, let me know. It is possible. It is God that rules, and the doctrine of his sovereignty is the fundamental basis of Reformed theology.

I, too, believe that the elect and the results of Jesus's death on the cross covers the elect from Adam until the last one of his elect has been regenerated. God choose Jacob and not Esau to show that his election might stand therefore Jacob (Israel) not the nation of Israel, is a type of the church and Jacob (Israel) is their representative. Job 13:8 - Will ye accept his person? Will ye contend (defend) for God?

 

[UnderGrace]

I'm not sure what you are saying.

I am stating the Reformed theology lacks understanding of faith/belief both in its biblical context and as a real world concept as well.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think my particular approach, which is blunt, irks individuals from the anti-Reformed clique here. As a result, they are going to accuse me of anything they can.

UWC,

You have RECENTLY come to CC to promote Reformed theology and Calvinism, and started a number of threads in that direction. You have also come here to promote anti-Dispensationalism, and the false eschatology of the Reformed groups.

Since the majority of Christians here reject this theological nonsense, all you are doing is stirring dissension and strife. Why don't you go to a board which is committed to Reformed theology and mingle with your Reformed brethren? You will be happier there and so will everyone else over here,

 

[Melach]

UWC,

You have RECENTLY come to CC to promote Reformed theology and Calvinism, and started a number of threads in that direction. You have also come here to promote anti-Dispensationalism, and the false eschatology of the Reformed groups.

Since the majority of Christians here reject this theological nonsense, all you are doing is stirring dissension and strife. Why don't you go to a board which is committed to Reformed theology and mingle with your Reformed brethren? You will be happier there and so will everyone else over here,

do reformed even have eschatology? i have heard tim conway preach some eschatology and you can see he hate doing it. he even went like one more to go and this is the only time im dealing with this

they just hate to deal with it. because its so many o.t verses they cant explain at all. entire zechariah 14 is good example they can tell us what it doesnt mean, but not what it means lolz

they are anti-dispensational because that destroys their elect business completely. if you rightly divide you can see israel was elect and is called elect in n.t. while in unbelief and they arent saved. just because you are elect dont mean you are saved

2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[garee]

i dont know why but i kind of like you actually. we are very similar people we like to go back and forth.

john 5:25 Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

i know you havent ignored me because you like me as well.

lets talk about john 5:25. this is talking about those people who you would say in ephesians 2 are dead in trespasses and sins do you agree? but then they hear the voice of God. those who hear will live. so clearly they have an option to listen to it? to hear it?

i will become a calvinist right now i will tattoo john calvin's face (joke) if there is a verse that says only the elect can hear God's word. only the few can hear the voice of son of God, john 5:25, when Jesus said go into all the world, preach to all nations.

A person would have to define what it means to be dead in ones trespasses and sin with no way seek after God, having no understanding .I would think from birth we have no understanding not little none. No man of his own volition will.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that "seeketh after God". Romans 3;10

It becomes to how we define "faith" . Does God have faith to give as a free gift ?

Do dead people have faith by which they could hear? Are they born with it or born with none ?

We know everyone has faith but in resect to what or who?

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is "no faith"

Its one of the two either we have faith or we have none that could lease God.

The Faith of Christ is the gift . It as a work that works in us is inrespect to His labor of love.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am stating the Reformed theology lacks understanding of faith/belief both in its biblical context and as a real world concept as well.

OK, easy enough claim to make without proving it.

 

[garee]

do reformed even have eschatology? i have heard tim conway preach some eschatology and you can see he hate doing it. he even went like one more to go and this is the only time im dealing with this

they just hate to deal with it. because its so many o.t verses they cant explain at all. entire zechariah 14 is good example they can tell us what it doesnt mean, but not what it means lolz

they are anti-dispensational because that destroys their elect business completely. if you rightly divide you can see israel was elect and is called elect in n.t. while in unbelief and they arent saved. just because you are elect dont mean you are saved

2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Most reformed have a Amil position as to their eschatology. The word thousand "signified" represents a unknown . The word thousand is used that way all through the Bible.

Those who shy away from parables rather seek after sign as wonders.They simply literalize it as he sent it. . . and did not signify it.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he "sent" and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Kojikun]

For a Deterministic Calvinist, prayer is the predetermined “means” to a prescripted end.

remember, God has sent me here to point out the futility of the Calvinistic position or I would not be here

which of course, if you are Calvinist, pretermines everything you will retort or even think

best to get off that merry-go-round and the dizzying consequences with predetermined conclusions that make prayer obsolete

the op, it would seem, cannot distinguish between an insult and biblical support for his position

as others have stated here, it appears that some Calvinists absolutely enjoy insulting others and think that somehow undergirds their obvious self righteous platform

Always interesting to see a Calvinist get angry about anothers belief. As if they had a choice to choose otherwise

 

[cv5]

I am stating the Reformed theology lacks understanding of faith/belief both in its biblical context and as a real world concept as well.

My question: what is the alternative?
Can you provide your definition or affiliation?

 

[cv5]

UWC,

You have RECENTLY come to CC to promote Reformed theology and Calvinism, and started a number of threads in that direction. You have also come here to promote anti-Dispensationalism, and the false eschatology of the Reformed groups.

Since the majority of Christians here reject this theological nonsense, all you are doing is stirring dissension and strife. Why don't you go to a board which is committed to Reformed theology and mingle with your Reformed brethren? You will be happier there and so will everyone else over here,

Reformed theology is simply a rejection of RC. Thats all. It certainly is not "Calvinism".

 

[Hevosmies]

Always interesting to see a Calvinist get angry about anothers belief. As if they had a choice to choose otherwise

Always interesting to see someone who believes in libertarian free-will pray for God to save someone. As if God would over-ride their free will.

Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!

 

[cv5]

do reformed even have eschatology? i have heard tim conway preach some eschatology and you can see he hate doing it. he even went like one more to go and this is the only time im dealing with this

they just hate to deal with it. because its so many o.t verses they cant explain at all. entire zechariah 14 is good example they can tell us what it doesnt mean, but not what it means lolz

they are anti-dispensational because that destroys their elect business completely. if you rightly divide you can see israel was elect and is called elect in n.t. while in unbelief and they arent saved. just because you are elect dont mean you are saved

2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

I am a Reformed pre-millennial dispensationalist. So much for rigid categories.

 

[Kojikun]

Always interesting to see someone who believes in libertarian free-will pray for God to save someone. As if God would over-ride their free will.

Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!

It makes sense to pray for God to show them signs. Its there choice to make in the end. If you really think about it neither version makes perfect sense. Either God dooms us from the start or he respects us enough to let us burn.

 

[Hevosmies]

I am a Reformed pre-millennial dispensationalist. So much for rigid categories.

There are some reformed dispies FEW and FAR between. Johnny MAC is one, thats what we DO know. But Johnny Mac is the exception, not the rule, and he aint THAT deep into dispensationalism as many on here. He does agree to the basic tenets of 7 Dispensations in history and a literal history for Israel so the SHOE FITS!

 

[Kojikun]

Always interesting to see someone who believes in libertarian free-will pray for God to save someone. As if God would over-ride their free will.

Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!

also apologies If I offended by my post. Im more in the middle on said debate I agree with a good Chunk of Calvinism but not all of it but tbh full blown Arminian seems very unscriptural.