Praying in Tongues

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yellowcanary

Junior Member
May 22, 2018
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1 Corinthians 13:8-13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

If Paul is referring to us seeing Christ "face to face" in this writing, do we now (or presently) see His face through a glass ... but darkly (or as a reflection in a mirror)? If "that which is perfect is come" refers to Jesus, "what exactly shall be done away with" afterwards ? Certainly not God's Word ... agreed ? Because we know that His Word endures forever.

Does faith, hope and love endure after prophecies fail ... after tongues cease .. after knowledge is vanished away ? And if so (they do), how do we then explain the continuance of faith and hope when we are in Christ's very presence ? Has not our faith and hope (at this point) now been fully realized (in Christ's presence) ? Of course they have.

"That which is in part" pertains to those very things that God utilized to bring us His complete (and perfect) Word ... today's bible. And what were they ? Prophecies though His prophets of old .. divine knowledge given to those chosen by Him .. and even tongues during the apostolic era (supernaturally given earthly languages) in order that all may hear ... but even then, they will not listen to Me.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

Is Jesus dwelling amongst you and I today in bodily form ? Of course not. But He did dwell amongst those of the apostolic era. Biblical context is crucial to understanding. But I thank you for your reply nonetheless.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,883
926
113
Fallacy: equivocation.

All of Scripture is "God-breathed" (inspired) and therefore is "God's word." However, there are prophecies recorded in Scripture that are not God's words.

Perhaps a syllogism written from my perspective, contrasted with one written from yours, will clarify what I'm saying:

My view:
Scripture and prophecy are not synonymous.
Prophecy may be recorded in Scripture, and portions of Scripture are prophecy.
Therefore, Peter's words, "no prophecy of Scripture" make perfect sense.

Your view:
Prophecy and Scripture are synonymous.
All prophecy is Scripture, and all Scripture is prophecy.
Therefore, Peter's words, "no prophecy of Scripture" don't make sense.


It would seem you are isolating "no prophecy of Scripture"...... from...... is of any private interpretation as a incomplete sentence. Then the reason is given "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2 Peter 1:20-21

My view:
Prophecy as words spoken, and Scripture, the media of writing that which was declared . it would be as the phrase, "as it is written".

Three times in Mathew 4 the father of lies spoke false prophecy to Jesus. Words inspired from earth of the devil according to .James 3:15 And three, with three representing the end of the matter Jesus said again and again, "as it is written" to emphasize God's written media is the validator of the unseen spiritual truths of God. No oral traditions as private interpretations of any man.

The Holy Spirit of Christ brings true prophecy inspired from heaven, as it is written. and not after the oral traditions of men under the inspiration of the father of lies Satan

In one sense Jesus could of used what is said in 2 Peter 1:20-21 Its the same as saying as it written, by the finger of God.

Oral traditions of men written down are private interpretations they would fit idea the prophecy of scripture written by the finger of man .

The father of lies tool or tradition used to make as it is written by the finger of God to no effect. God's tradition .

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,883
926
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Maby you overread that I said. All WHO CAME TO HIM where healed. Matth. 13.58 and Mark 6.5 report the same event in Nazareth. There stand nothing that the came to him.
The question I would ask is in respect to the word ALL . Is that All that were there or as many as the Holy Spirit worked in as a work of Christ's faith giving the faith to be healed? And it was not of their own or nothing to do with the person being healed or the hands or will used to mediate.

They simply heard the gospel and as a sign that followed God would periodically heal of this ailment or that to represent the power of the gospel .

Below in Acts 14 is a perfect example showing the gospel effect on a person not having the ability to walk used as a parable to understand walking by faith.(believing God not seen)

Christ gave them the faith coming from the gospel to be healed and as a sign that followed. Again He would periodically heal of this ailment or that to represent the power of the gospel . .Not a sign a person seeks after of ones own self .We walk by faith (Christ's) the unseen eternal not after the temporal thing seen the imaginations of ones own heart and fleshly minds

And there they "preached the gospel".And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The "gods are come down to us in the likeness of men". And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, Acts 14:7-14

Again it would like the first time being dead in or trespasses and sin spiritually lame and when we heard the words of our salvation enabling us to walk by the faith of Christ the gospel of our salvation. The apostles apposed that the work of their hands they had nothing to do with the work of God.

Men who were not believers (no faith) when they witnessed the event they did that which is natural for those who walk by sight seeking a sign and wonders gospel . They said gods are coming in the likeness of man. In the end violating the first commandment to have no gods before our living God.

I believe it is no different today. Why make those who put there hands on others or minister the word into gods in the likeness of men? Preach the gospel let God decide who he will heal or choses not. We have the privilege to pray. God has to power to move men to be healed.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,230
4,921
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It would seem you are isolating "no prophecy of Scripture"...... from...... is of any private interpretation as a incomplete sentence. Then the reason is given "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2 Peter 1:20-21
I have intentionally set aside the rest of the verse, because it is extraneous to my point. The word "prophecy" is in question, in the context of "of Scripture". The rest of the verse neither adds nor takes away from my point.

My point is simply this: if, as you say, Scripture is written prophecy, then Peter's words are nonsensical. I am quite certain that Peter's words are not nonsensical, so your position must be incorrect.

My view:
Prophecy as words spoken, and Scripture, the media of writing that which was declared . it would be as the phrase, "as it is written".
You can view it any way you like, but your view turns Peter's words into redundant gibberish. Nothing in Scripture declares Scripture (generally) to be written prophecy.

Three times in Mathew 4 the father of lies spoke false prophecy to Jesus. Words inspired from earth of the devil according to .James 3:15 And three, with three representing the end of the matter Jesus said again and again, "as it is written" to emphasize God's written media is the validator of the unseen spiritual truths of God. No oral traditions as private interpretations of any man.

The Holy Spirit of Christ brings true prophecy inspired from heaven, as it is written. and not after the oral traditions of men under the inspiration of the father of lies Satan

In one sense Jesus could of used what is said in 2 Peter 1:20-21 Its the same as saying as it written, by the finger of God.

Oral traditions of men written down are private interpretations they would fit idea the prophecy of scripture written by the finger of man .

The father of lies tool or tradition used to make as it is written by the finger of God to no effect. God's tradition .

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
This is one big red herring. We go in circles on this because you keep trying to drag in all these secondary issues. Let's sort out the basic meaning of "prophecy" and then we can discuss the rest. As long as we disagree on the fundamental issue, discussing the rest is a waste of time.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,294
424
83
The question I would ask is in respect to the word ALL . Is that All that were there or as many as the Holy Spirit worked in as a work of Christ's faith giving the faith to be healed? And it was not of their own or nothing to do with the person being healed or the hands or will used to mediate.

They simply heard the gospel and as a sign that followed God would periodically heal of this ailment or that to represent the power of the gospel .

Below in Acts 14 is a perfect example showing the gospel effect on a person not having the ability to walk used as a parable to understand walking by faith.(believing God not seen)

Christ gave them the faith coming from the gospel to be healed and as a sign that followed. Again He would periodically heal of this ailment or that to represent the power of the gospel . .Not a sign a person seeks after of ones own self .We walk by faith (Christ's) the unseen eternal not after the temporal thing seen the imaginations of ones own heart and fleshly minds

And there they "preached the gospel".And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The "gods are come down to us in the likeness of men". And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, Acts 14:7-14

Again it would like the first time being dead in or trespasses and sin spiritually lame and when we heard the words of our salvation enabling us to walk by the faith of Christ the gospel of our salvation. The apostles apposed that the work of their hands they had nothing to do with the work of God.

Men who were not believers (no faith) when they witnessed the event they did that which is natural for those who walk by sight seeking a sign and wonders gospel . They said gods are coming in the likeness of man. In the end violating the first commandment to have no gods before our living God.

I believe it is no different today. Why make those who put there hands on others or minister the word into gods in the likeness of men? Preach the gospel let God decide who he will heal or choses not. We have the privilege to pray. God has to power to move men to be healed.
Well, in the past I worked out all verses in the Gospel where Jesus healed. And I found out that several Times it is written , that all we're healed ore cast out demons from those which came to Him.
( for the pitty i have this outwork at moment not among with me.)

And I Met not only here,believers, which claim that Jesus heals today as he did while he was in earth.

If then I would also expect the same result as in the Time of Jesus ministrie on earth.
But this is not!
That means not that he is not healing today.


Further I See an different between church life and Mission ministrie. In the missionfield it is obivious, that the Lord works more extraordinary through Wonders and healings then in the Church.
The reason I See in John 20, 29-30. Jesus die this Wonders to Proof that he is the son of God. And has the power, nobody has. In the missionfield the battle with the devil is more obvious then in the church, where all believe in Jesus ( it should be so).
Why he should demonstrate his Power in the Church?
In the other Side we are his Children and we can pray for each others needs. So we expierience help and healings through our Lord.

Today my Impression is, that People dont notice that there is a different, for to support their doctrines.
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
73
48
****Always remember if there is a counterfeit, there is also a "real". If you were afraid of money just because some money is counterfeit you would never use money. Yes, enter into the true things of the Spirit and don't let the fear of others block you. Jesus is our example and He walked in love, but also power.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,065
703
113
****Always remember if there is a counterfeit, there is also a "real". If you were afraid of money just because some money is counterfeit you would never use money. Yes, enter into the true things of the Spirit and don't let the fear of others block you. Jesus is our example and He walked in love, but also power.
On what basis do you say there are fake tongues? Is it because it sounds different from yours? Is it because of the behavior of the one speaking in tongues? Is it because it fails to meet 1 Cor 12-14? how?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,230
4,921
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On what basis do you say there are fake tongues? Is it because it sounds different from yours? Is it because of the behavior of the one speaking in tongues? Is it because it fails to meet 1 Cor 12-14? how?
You accused 88 of saying there are fake tongues; he didn't.

He said IF there is a counterfeit.... He didn't even specify "tongues".
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,065
703
113
You accused 88 of saying there are fake tongues; he didn't.

He said IF there is a counterfeit.... He didn't even specify "tongues".
So, do you believe there are some fake tongues today? why or why not?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,230
4,921
113
I'm not asking so as to bait anyone, i'm asking a genuine question and looking forward to a sincere answer.
Define "fake tongues", and I will consider providing a sincere answer.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,230
4,921
113
Genuine tongues= gift from the Holy spirit
Fake tongues= Not from the Holy spirit/God
So, do you believe there are some fake tongues today? why or why not?
Yes, I believe there are some fake tongues, according to the definition above, because some ungifted people want to appear gifted, and because unclean spirits are empowering some fakes.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,883
926
113
Well, in the past I worked out all verses in the Gospel where Jesus healed. And I found out that several Times it is written , that all we're healed ore cast out demons from those which came to Him.
( for the pitty i have this outwork at moment not among with me.)
Hi thanks for the reply. It would seem we are close to agreeing, possibly the same looking at it from different perspectives?

All as in as many that the father gives the faith of Christ in order to be healed. 3000 were healed from death to eternal life at Pentecost when they heard the gospel...or one like in the Acts 14 example

And I Met not only here,believers, which claim that Jesus heals today as he did while he was in earth.

If then I would also expect the same result as in the Time of Jesus ministrie on earth.
But this is not!
That means not that he is not healing today.
God heals these bodies of death indiscriminately temporally healing is not the goal of the gospel, it is used to represent it in various parables which do hide the spiritual understanding. .

During the time he was here as the Son of man Jesus used certain kinds of healing to represent that men had heard the gospel. As the Spirit of Christ worked in them to both will and perform the good pleasure of God ,as a imputed righteousness.

Signs followed and not something we seek after like that of the evil generation of natural unconverted man that has no recourse except to understand or walk after the things seen the temporal . having no faith not little but none. You could say spiritually lame.

Further I See an different between church life and Mission ministrie. In the missionfield it is obivious, that the Lord works more extraordinary through Wonders and healings then in the Church.
When the Son of man, Jesus was here he did use wonderment to show the work of the gospel .

When a person first believes (our first love) in their heart it is a wonderment or joyous occasion .But again not something we seek after as an out toward sign it confirm a person is walking by sight . We walk by faith the unseen eternal previously being lame and having no ability to walk by the faith that alone comes by hearing God, as it is written.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,065
703
113
Yes, I believe there are some fake tongues, according to the definition above, because some ungifted people want to appear gifted, and because unclean spirits are empowering some fakes.
On what basis would you say this is fake tongue? Is it because of the behavior of the person or because it fails to meet the 1 Cor 14?

Let me use specific examples; most of the snake handlers churches also speak in tongues and they all argue that they are gifted as per Acts/Mark 16/ 1 Cor 12-14.

Q1. Do you believe they are genuinely gifted by the Holy spirit to speak in tongues?
Q2. If not, why? Is it because of their false doctrine (snake handling)?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,883
926
113
Yes, I believe there are some fake tongues, according to the definition above, because some ungifted people want to appear gifted, and because unclean spirits are empowering some fakes.
There is fake tongues or fake prophecy called false prophecy. It comes by the oral traditions of men that make the written tradition of God to no effect, by those private interpretation of men

A good example to how that works out is by viewing the written traditions of the Catholic fathers called a "law of the fathers" inspired from Rome.

The Law of the fathers #80 verses 40 -41

One common source. . .

#80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal40."Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41


And yet for all that they still refuse to hear and belive God... but rather do whatsoever their mouths say as oral traditions of men and see no evil in doing so .
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,883
926
113
On what basis would you say this is fake tongue? Is it because of the behavior of the person or because it fails to meet the 1 Cor 14?

Let me use specific examples; most of the snake handlers churches also speak in tongues and they all argue that they are gifted as per Acts/Mark 16/ 1 Cor 12-14.

Q1. Do you believe they are genuinely gifted by the Holy spirit to speak in tongues?
Q2. If not, why? Is it because of their false doctrine (snake handling)?
I would think their false doctrine has provided many martyrs to support and confirm their unbelief .
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,294
424
83
Hi thanks for the reply. It would seem we are close to agreeing, possibly the same looking at it from different perspectives?

All as in as many that the father gives the faith of Christ in order to be healed. 3000 were healed from death to eternal life at Pentecost when they heard the gospel...or one like in the Acts 14 example



God heals these bodies of death indiscriminately temporally healing is not the goal of the gospel, it is used to represent it in various parables which do hide the spiritual understanding. .

During the time he was here as the Son of man Jesus used certain kinds of healing to represent that men had heard the gospel. As the Spirit of Christ worked in them to both will and perform the good pleasure of God ,as a imputed righteousness.

Signs followed and not something we seek after like that of the evil generation of natural unconverted man that has no recourse except to understand or walk after the things seen the temporal . having no faith not little but none. You could say spiritually lame.



When the Son of man, Jesus was here he did use wonderment to show the work of the gospel .

When a person first believes (our first love) in their heart it is a wonderment or joyous occasion .But again not something we seek after as an out toward sign it confirm a person is walking by sight . We walk by faith the unseen eternal previously being lame and having no ability to walk by the faith that alone comes by hearing God, as it is written.
I think, if I am right, then Jesus perform all the miracles to proof what is said of him from the former prophets that he is the messajah.
And for shure of course to proof that the gospel is from God.

And that healings and miracles alone didnt leed to faith in Christ. This we find in the Gospels, too. And today.
The people like the benefits of health and wealth, but not carry their own cross. How many christians suffer, because of persecution and dont expierience health and wealth.
And if you study the NT what Jesus and the Apostels said about persecution. Than we find, that if we want follow Christ, persecution is an normal part of an christian life.
And not a life in peace and health and wealth.