Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

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Polar

Guest
#21
Things must be slow around here. This op was pushing up daisies and now all these responses. That's good though.
 
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Polar

Guest
#23
Anyone want to discuss Arminianism? Thinking about it, it seems to me that discussion is hard to come by around here unless included as a byline in a Calvinist thread.

Just wondering about thoughts on that.
 
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Polar

Guest
#25
Jesus pretty much blew this idea out of the water when He spoke of the great falling away........ It is true that NO POWER can take us from the hand of God, but we can turn our backs on God, even after having come to salvation.

That is why Once Saved Always Saved is flawed theology.

The correct statement should read Once Sanctified Always Sanctified. That being because a sanctified believer is a mature believer who has grown strong in his faith/belief in Jesus/God and has endured untold hardships/temptations and overcome them to remain faithfu to God. His faith being so strong, he could not imagine any situation causing him to falter in his faith and turn away from God. Does not mean he could'nt, it means he never would. He still has free will.

SALVATION DOES NOT NEGATE FREE WILL!

Those that believe it does are simply practicing/teacing "Calvin-lite" Theology..........
I'm really not trying to pick on you, but sanctification is not something we arrive at when we arrive at spiritual maturity. Sanctification means to be set apart and it is an ongoing process. We grow in our relationship with Christ and that is the process of sanctification but we are justified in Christ and were a person to die one day after accepting Christ, they would be sanctified in Him.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#26
Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost.
I agree with all the above.

Arminians are falsely accused of promoting salvation-by-works heresy. The Bible is clear that we are saved by grace and nothing else. In desperation, Calvinists manufacture strawmen in order to derail seekers and funnel them into their own camp.

A good definition for Arminianism might be anti-Calvinism. It lets people know that you have nothing to do with Calvinistic heresy.

Granted, it is always best to just identify as Christian.
 
Jun 28, 2022
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#28
Don't all doctrines and denominations arrive using the scriptures as their foundation?

From what I've read God does predestine things. We plan but he determines our path.

If I insist I have complete free will and my life sucks, isn't that saying God sees that and does nothing to help?
And wouldn't that mean God doesn't intercede? Which makes prayer worthless.

Or, is God wholly sovereign over his creation? That he made to be imperfect.

Besides, all the prophecies in the Bible tell us God's preplanned those things. Those then? But nothing else?

How can our will overcome Gods? If our will does us harm and God doesn't intercede being he's omniscient, can he then be Omni benevolent?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,881
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#30
It means that Christ died only for the so-called "elect" not for the whole world. And that plainly contradicts the Bible.
yes his conclusions are erroneous from the foundations of his philosophy. In that his basics is man is incapable of doing good invapable of making a free choice when tempted not to act on it

his basis is that man has no role , no culpability and those damned have no choice God just created then to punish evil ect ultimately it goes to the basis for the great grace lie
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,314
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#31
The ship is eternally secure and predestined for Heaven, but there be fools who will jump overboard...
Well - said -- though the captain of the boat does all he can to keep them on board - his love, persuasion, and kindness is impeccable and almost irresistable . . .

but the captain is not a tyrant - he does not tie up and keep as prisoners those who want off the ship
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,881
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#32
they do many just distort them to make the scripture seem to support thier view for instance

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

many use this scripture and make it the basis for the reason to omit the rest of the New Testament saying “ grace means warranted favor “ therefore nothing you do or don’t do applies “

scripture has a clear and consistent message throughout but when we pluck verses from the context we can aim it towards any direction as long as other scripture is excluded seeming to contradict leaving no thought of how the points reconcile instead grace erases the ones they they don’t want to hear or don’t agree with their conceived idea of what they thought it had said
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,314
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#33
The saved person still has an unaffected free will. The option of becoming unsaved is simply not submitted to it. He's predestined to conformity to the image of God's Son.
So the believer has no option given him to leave Christ??!!!: I disagree, and I know (and I bet every person knows very well) that I (and he) have the moral capability to choose today to leave Christ, to go out and sin rdiculously, and to become a "Hitler"

But I have become a servant of Jesus Christ by choice, not by compulsion!!!! PTL!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#34
he determines our path.
Only if we yield to Him.

God sees that and does nothing to help?
If you have been given over to a reprobate mind, then yes.

God doesn't intercede?
Not for the wicked.

Which makes prayer worthless.
Sometimes God's answer is no. He knows best.

Or, is God wholly sovereign over his creation?
Yes.

That he made to be imperfect.
No. It is we who made it imperfect.

God's preplanned those things.
God had foreknowledge of those things.

The correct word is reject.

can he then be Omni benevolent?
Sounds like you haven't read your Bible...

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
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Polar

Guest
#35
"Bluesproverb, post: 4870195, member: 316904"]Don't all doctrines and denominations arrive using the scriptures as their foundation?

From what I've read God does predestine things. We plan but he determines our path.

Not quite. There are numerous instances in scripture where people pray for direction or the scripture indicates we choose

If I insist I have complete free will and my life sucks, isn't that saying God sees that and does nothing to help?
And wouldn't that mean God doesn't intercede? Which makes prayer worthless.

Well if you have complete free will, why would God do anything? Then again if you have that free will, you can pray. Neither view is correct.

Or, is God wholly sovereign over his creation? That he made to be imperfect.

Why would God who is perfect, create imperfection? Are you familiar with Genesis? When He created, He said what He created was good, which you can find in Gen 1.

Besides, all the prophecies in the Bible tell us God's preplanned those things. Those then? But nothing else?

Prophecy indicates what will happen. God knows what will happen. Difference between foretelling what will happen and making something happen.

How can our will overcome Gods? If our will does us harm and God doesn't intercede being he's omniscient, can he then be Omni benevolent?

Where do you get the expression omni-benevolent from?
 
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Polar

Guest
#36
Arminians are falsely accused of promoting salvation-by-works heresy.
I don't know what that is. Doesn't that go with the salvation by faith and not works?
 
Jun 28, 2022
1,258
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#38
Only if we yield to Him.



If you have been given over to a reprobate mind, then yes.



Not for the wicked.



Sometimes God's answer is no. He knows best.



Yes.



No. It is we who made it imperfect.



God had foreknowledge of those things.



The correct word is reject.



Sounds like you haven't read your Bible...

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Sounds like you prefer to ignore parts of the Bible you don't understand or like.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,881
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#40
I don't know what that is. Doesn't that go with the salvation by faith and not works?
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭

faith brings good works and does away wo the evil works it doesnt shun the good works set before us it walks in them

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭

the gospel and what Jesus says to do is the good we’re meant to walk in. You know how the popular explaination of saved by grace says “ grace is unwarranted favor so no work can ever be included ? The truth is this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-12, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as long as we believe good works aren’t for us , we’re actually rejecting the entire purpose that Christ died for to bring us from the power of sin and darkness to the power of light and life and the righteousness of Jesus Christ

faith without works is a word people don’t understand