Pre-Destination, God's Foreknowledge and Choice

[Polar]

Not at all. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all those who believe (Rom 1:16). So the seed of the New Birth is in fact the Word of God (the Gospel) as noted by Peter in 1 Peter 1:23-25 and confirmed by John in John 1:12,13. And Romans 10 clearly tells us that we are saved by calling up the name of the Lord, and that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). But no one is regenerated without the gift of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:4-7) which is only given to those who repent and believe.

I was referring specifically to your last sentence there.

"Nehemiah6, post: 4870247, member: 258921"]While this is true, there is a little bit of correspondence to Calvinism in the Five Articles of Remonstrance put out by the Arminians. Article 3 in particular reflects Total Depravity.

'That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”'

This almost sounds like a sinner must experience the New Birth before believing.

 

[Bluesproverb]

I don't imagine anything.

Perhaps consider what you said ESPECIALLY since you just joined the forum and don't yet know who is who and what they believe or know, (notwithstanding you are a returning member with a new moniker) and adjust the temperature of your posts so that you don't sound like YOU are the know all and end all here.

I am actually a very reasonable person, but I know bully tactics, which is what you did, when I see them and I don't wish that for anyone.

Telling someone you do not know, that their response to you sounds like they prefer to ignore parts of the Bible they do not understand or like, is not inclined towards the civility you dream of enjoying here one day.

Someone with a returning moniker.
Speaking for others as if the very thing they falsely accuse others of being.

Yet your sinful arrogance, obvious to a new arrival, thinks to be a proud cold bully threatening people through innuendo. Your hatred is disgusting . GTHS.

 

[Polar]

Someone with a returning moniker.
Speaking for others as if the very thing they falsely accuse others of being.

Yet your sinful arrogance, obvious to a new arrival, thinks to be a proud cold bully threatening people through innuendo. GTHS.

Yes.
And when is it you accepted Christ as your Savior?

Well, we are all still in the process of sanctification so express yourself as you must.

 

[Polar]

Neither.

Salvation after belief.. that isn't calvinism.

Eternal life given at belief.. that isn't arminianism.

Although armeniast may say they get eternal life but can undo it.. which is illogical.

hmmm

Now you have expressed an indication of why I say I am neither. I really do not see the 2 choices so many seem to think we have as either or

 

[Polar]

Hey, Polar.

I shared my thoughts on this topic my first time through here as "Live4Him" in a three-part post.

If you're interested in reading it, then you can find it here:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/scriptural-authority.197908/#post-4510024

Well I read it and I think you covered the ground on what the words really mean. Have heard that before, but been some time so a refresher was good!

 

[Live4Him3]

Well I read it and I think you covered the ground on what the words really mean. Have heard that before, but been some time so a refresher was good!

Yes, it's important that we understand what words like "predestination", "adoption", and "earnest" actually mean or else we're bound to come away with false doctrine...of which most churches are presently full.

 

[Polar]

Yes, it's important that we understand what words like "predestination", "adoption", and "earnest" actually mean or else we're bound to come away with false doctrine...of which most churches are presently full.

You know, with the balance between the misuse of the word predestination and the use of the word choose we see God saying again and again, the understanding would seem to indicate choice just by the sheer volume of the use of the word.

There is that, and when you get to a certain point in your life and you really look at it, you begin to reflect on choice and the fact that we do choose every single day all day long. We are not locked into a certain 'type' of behavior that illustrates God doing all the thinking for us.

Renew your mind, does not mean stop thinking. I guess Paul wasn't kidding when he said 'we see through a glass darkly'

 

[Live4Him3]

You know, with the balance between the misuse of the word predestination and the use of the word choose we see God saying again and again, the understanding would seem to indicate choice just by the sheer volume of the use of the word.

There is that, and when you get to a certain point in your life and you really look at it, you begin to reflect on choice and the fact that we do choose every single day all day long. We are not locked into a certain 'type' of behavior that illustrates God doing all the thinking for us.

Renew your mind, does not mean stop thinking. I guess Paul wasn't kidding when he said 'we see through a glass darkly'

It's actually a multiple misuse of the word "predestination".

For starters, the word is only used in scripture in relation to what Christians who endure unto the end have been "predestinated" to, and it's never used in relation to anything that non-believers have allegedly been "predestinated" to.

Then, of course, there's what Christians have actually been "predestinated" to. Namely, to receive glorified bodies like Jesus has at his second coming.

In other words, nothing at all about God allegedly "predestinating" certain people to heaven and others to hell apart from their free will choices.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This almost sounds like a sinner must experience the New Birth before believing.

Right. And that is false. See Ephesians 1:13: In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...

Notice carefully the sequence of events.

1. The Gospel of your salvation was preached first. (It is called "the Word of Truth" or in other Scriptures "the Word of God".)

2. You trusted in or believed on Christ AFTER hearing the Gospel.

3. You received the Holy Spirit AFTER you believed.

4. You were sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER you received the Spirit.

 

[oyster67]

While this is true, there is a little bit of correspondence to Calvinism in the Five Articles of Remonstrance put out by the Arminians. Article 3 in particular reflects Total Depravity.

'That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”'

This almost sounds like a sinner must experience the New Birth before believing.

Definitely best not to identify oneself with any "ism". Just stick close to the Bible and follow Jesus.

 

[oyster67]

Calvinism doesn't utilize the Bible to sustain its doctrine?

I suppose one could say that Calvinism mutilates the Bible.

 

[oyster67]

Wouldn't that refer to being able to save yourself more or less?

You make the choice; Jesus makes the save. Not complicated at all.

 

[Polar]

You make the choice; Jesus makes the save. Not complicated at all.

I believe that.

Call me a glutton for punishment, but I am just hoping/looking, for thoughts about the whole thing and not time tested responses that we all know

 

[Polar]

Right. And that is false. See Ephesians 1:13: In whom [Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...

Notice carefully the sequence of events.

1. The Gospel of your salvation was preached first. (It is called "the Word of Truth" or in other Scriptures "the Word of God".)

2. You trusted in or believed on Christ AFTER hearing the Gospel.

3. You received the Holy Spirit AFTER you believed.

4. You were sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER you received the Spirit.

Yes

 

[Bluesproverb]

I suppose one could say that Calvinism mutilates the Bible.

Impossible.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism/Reformed Theology is essentially "another gospel". It is a total distortion of the biblical Gospel of the Grace of God.

The Bible is crystal clear that God has offered salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ to "whosoever" will repent and believe on Him. This includes all of humanity, since Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

Those who are believers are then predestined or elected to be perfected and glorified in Christ -- "conformed to the image of God's Son". At the same time those who are saved and are eternally secure in Christ are commanded to live righteously, in obedience to God and Christ. This means walking in the Spirit, and mortifying the flesh.

God does not regenerate anyone before they believe. Yet that is the bizarre doctrine of the Calvinists. Sinners are regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to those who repent and are converted. Also, no one is regenerated through water baptism (as taught by the RCC and some others). Only those who receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated are baptized. See Acts 10.[/Q


Why do you want to invent your own version and depart from the truth up and down the line.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am glad that you drew the distinction and the extreme contrast.

I am curious about the meaning of Calvin's "limited atonement".

Jesus dies a Covenant death for a Multitude of Sinners Given to Him by The Father.
He seeks and saves each and every one of them. Everyone believing will be saved.
They will be saved, not one more, not one less.
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham

 

[JohnRH]

If God's grace is resistible, then how do you explain Daniel 4:35? Does resistible mean to stay his hand?

His hand isn't grace; it's His hand.

 

[Chester]

Don't all doctrines and denominations arrive using the scriptures as their foundation?

Maybe most denominations originally started with the Scriptures, but once doctrine is written down, then that becomes the starting point.

For example, if I become a pastor in a Southern Baptist Church, or a Lutheran Church, or a Holiness Church, etc., dare I start my teaching by going to the Word and teaching what (I) think it says? No, I must begin with that church's doctrinal statement. I have liberty of Scriptural interpretation as long as I abide by the doctrinal statement.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Maybe most denominations originally started with the Scriptures, but once doctrine is written down, then that becomes the starting point.

For example, if I become a pastor in a Southern Baptist Church, or a Lutheran Church, or a Holiness Church, etc., dare I start my teaching by going to the Word and teaching what (I) think it says? No, I must begin with that church's doctrinal statement. I have liberty of Scriptural interpretation as long as I abide by the doctrinal statement.

Which derives from the content in the bible.

I've seen that some who condemn a particular doctrine don't know that. Predestination,predetermination. Prophecy, even tells us God's plans for our future, i.e. predetermined future. Revelations to John on the isle of Patmos being the obvious.