God's people are never intended to suffer His wrath. We will not be here when that happens; the church is no longer here after the third chapter of Revelation. The word rapture is not in the Bible but catching away is the meaning of the Greek in Thessalonians. Jesus said to watch and pray that you might escape the things to come. Unfortunately I do not have my Bible here at work with me to find the scriptures.
'Watch and pray that...' means that participation in the pretrib rapture is conditional. Not automatic.
So to say that 'the church is no longer here' is untrue. Some of the church is, some isn't.
In regard to Revelation 4's call to John to 'come up here,' there is no need to talk about the rapture obliquely, or indirectly.
Both raptures are plainly indicated in Rv 12 and 14; as well as implied in Rv 3; 7; 11; 15; 16; 17; 18; and 19.
When the rapture happens, we will meet Jesus in the air. That is not His second return. His second return is when He puts His feet down on the Mount of Olives. The wedding supper is just before that, and we obviously would have to be there to have a wedding supper.
The pretrib rapture is to the heavens, not to the air. The end-trib rapture is to the air. Both are part of His second return. His Parousia. He travels from heavens to air, and from there to the earth. Yes, He will land on the same place He ascended from.
The Mount of Olives. (I never heard anyone deny Christ returns to the Mount of Olives.....until here. How odd! How absurd and shameful. It could be symptomatic of something worse, some conscious? subconscious form of Arianism? Lord, come quickly!)
The escaping in [Lk 21:36] does not refer to disappearing from the earth. It refers to escaping from being weighed down with the cares and problems of this world.
Maybe you can tell that to Enoch. If you meet him.
21:36's 'escape' is to 'stand before the Son of Man.'
The Son of Man is in the heavens.
[Rev 3:10] has in mind 1st century AD. It was a church to which John was writing.
Right-----------Revelation's not written to the church later. At least not chapters 2--3.
There's nothing distantly-prophetic about the Spirit's letters to the 7 churches.
There's nothing particularly 'special' about the end of this age.
In fact, Christ doesn't return to earth.......He just makes a close fly-by then rushes back
to heaven where He came from.
But [Mt 24 'taken and left'] refers to being ready for Christ's coming and the accompanying rapture, rather than being left behind to face God's final judgment.
Why the 'but' when that's what I said?
Actually it does not refer to anyone remaining behind. You are simply inventing it. Those who are not taken will immediately face final judgment.
Yes, thanks. I invented the word 'left.' The final judgment happens when Christ returns. Not after the Millenium.
In fact, I'm inventing the Millenium also. Millenium = 1000 years. That's not in the Bible. Nowhere. Especially not Revelation 20. It doesn't mention it six times.
What an imagination you have LOL. The first reaping is the rapture and resurrection of the saints. The second is the final judgment on unbelievers. Both described in terms of harvest. As with the other verses at the end of time Christ gathers His own and visits the rest with judgment.
That's right. All farmers know that there's no such thing as early ripening. There's only the one big harvest at the end.
I never get tomatoes in July. I have to wait until September. If I get any in July--------I just imagined them.
But give reign to your peculiar reading of the Bible: Rev 14:1-5 is 'the rapture and resurrection of the saints'------
then what does 144,000 mean? And why separate 1-5 from 14-16? Since they're the same event. Or, if they aren't,
then what is 1-5 talking about?
The manchild is primarily Christ, but because we are in Him it secondarily includes His church
To the contrary:
Rv 12's manchild is the overcomers within the church. As promised in chapter 2 (and chapter 3).
Or is that 'nonsense' also? What are overcomers (within the churches) in 2--3?
Since there are 7 promises to them, do they have any importance? Any mention or suggestion further in the
book of Revelation? Why, other than your opinion, is 'the manchild primarily Christ'? Because traditionally that's so?
Then why is the woman not Mary? Why do we, or anyone, need to be told in Revelation that Christ descended from within
the nation of Israel? At the least after chapters 1--3, we have a narrative of the future, from John onward. All the way to chapter 22. So why a 'lesson,' figurative at that, on the Incarnation suddenly in chapter 12? Because..........the readers forget
that Christ incarnated? In case anyone missed that?
you mean it is your mistake not to recognise the obvious in pursuit of your outlandish theories? The manchild was recognised as Christ long before there was a Roman Catholic church. In the context it is crystal clear unless you have a theory to expound.
What is outlandish about Christ returning to earth with His saints? You prefer He return alone?
Your Satanic theory prefers that He not touch earth at all? So as not to soil His feet? Or you want to reiterate
your heresy that Christ is not Jehovah (Zech 14)?
You're silly in this regard, Mr Valiant. The manchild 'was recognized' as Christ....
Pardon me, please. I didn't realize it's already been 'recognized.' All you had to do was say that, ex cathedra,
for me to believe the interpretation.
Since, 'in the context' it is crystal clear to you, then maybe someday when you have time you can elaborate on what you think the context of Rv 12, and 12:5 in particular, is.
The woman is clearly identified as Israel by the sun moon and twelve stars..
My interpretation, that the woman represents all of God's people since Adam, matches Joseph's dream
in that Christ's family is much bigger now. Paul even calls me part of the 'Israel of God.' In Galatians.
Jesus' and John's point being that there is a stronger part----overcomers----within all of God's people
fro m the start until now. That is the manchild. The overcomers. It is not a foreign thought. It's is found in
the start of Revelation. Chapters 2--3. Which is also visible in chapter 6 praying for vengeance, which overcomers
is what God in Christ as the Spirit is working and waiting for, and which gives God the ground and accomplishment to
finish Satan's time. Carry out his sentence. Which is what happens in Revelation 12. Satan is cast out to the earth, and
is wroth, knowing he has but a short time.
But that's a) outlandish, and b) my theory, and c) my imagination. It has nothing to do with reality.
Your 'reality' is that believers go to heaven when they die.
But I request to hear it anyway: What is the point, in the context of the book of Revelation, such as chapters 5--11 on the seals, then chapters 13 on the beast, and 14 on.............whatever you want to fantasize it is on...............
what is the point of chapter 12's 'lesson on Israel'? Is it for the Antichrist's benefit? Or is the Antichrist ancient history only?
the woman is collective as Israel was often depicted as a woman. The manchild is both individual - Christ - and collective in including His church. But in Rev 12 the emphasis is on the manchild representing Christ.
Is the church ever depicted as a woman? In Ephesians 5? In John 3? Not in Ephesians 5? Not in John 3? Nowhere? Anywhere?
For that matter, is the church ever labelled as 'Israel'? In Galatians? Not in Galatians?
A feature I've noticed about your manner of interpretation is that you're free to be inconsistent, literarily. You said something about the seals being consecutive, but then the 7th seal is not---it is just an elaboration of the earlier seals? Did you say something similar about the 7 days in Genesis? How some represented eons....while others were 24-hour periods?
Anyway, to humor you, to go along with you: The lesson is that Christ and the church descended from the heritage of Israel?
Great. Thanks for clearing Revelation 12 up. I knew it has nothing to do with prophecy.
Nonsense. the first resurrection is that of Christ. Believers participate in it when they become His (Rev 20.4-5). We live and reign with Christ (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1-3; Rev 20.4-5). It has nothing to do with the rapture.
Likewise. Your mixing of physical resurrection and regeneration in their descriptions is nonsense. It's so nonsensical...it's tiresome. You left off debating this last time we 'wrestled.'
But to take up your silliness for a moment: since you think you go to heaven when you die, how is that not 'taking up'?
That's all that the Biblical translation 'rapture/raptio (Latin)' means. Do you prefer the word 'ascends'? 'Ascension'?
Does ascending have anything to do with the 'soul resurrection' you believe in? In fact, spiritually, do not believers both resurrect AND ascend? To be seated in the heavenlies in Christ? If so, is it just the letters r,a,p,t,u,r,e that have you so much in a tizzy? Why?
as the manchild is Christ He is pre everything. it is not talking about a pre-tribrapture.
No, of course not. I made up the words 'caught up' in Revelation 12:5. They are not there.
And they're certainly not there about Christ. Christ ascended. He wasn't 'caught up.'
Right? Am I repeating your teaching accurately? And Christ is pre everything. THAT is the lesson, the point, of Revelation 12.
There is no Mary in the wilderness, lol, no Israel running to hide for 1260 days.........no Israel being protected by God for that long.............because God wants Israel, or the church, to be persecuted. Escape is cowardly. God has no need of a pretrib rapture. He doesn't need any help. Certainly no help-meet. That is not God's eternal purpose. Right?
Christ is pre-everything. It's not good that the man be alone---------doesn't apply to Christ. If you ask me, He doesn't even
need to do an earth-fly-by. He can take care of it all from His throne in heaven. (All He really wants is for us to go to heaven when we die)
yes it is the early Jewish church which was left behind when Christ rose from the dead as described in Acts 1-12..
Ok. Sorry. I humbly apologize for asking you to interpret Rev 12. Here it is! It's all.............over. It's...........the book of Acts all over again. Except this time in 'ambiguous,' mysterious, figurative, language. All John (and Luke), and Jesus for that matter, could really communicate about in the first century was..............the first century. In case I misread or missed Acts,
here I can summarize Acts 1--12 in...........Revelation 12! Thanks-----I knew there has to be a purpose for Revelation 12.
The church in Jerusalem was 'left behind' (rather than being ascended.......oops, I mean raptured........oops no, I mean ascended......no, I mean caught up? Taken away? To paradise, lol, in the 3rd heavens).......so that we all could eventually receive the gospel. Makes sense to me.
LOL you are too hypnotised by left behind theology. The remainder of her seed were the church in the dispersion.
Thanks for saving me from that left-behind theology. Though 'theology' is an inaccurate term for............'eschatology' do they call it? And, yes, since Christians suffer persecution, it's anti-Christ to pray to escape anything, like Christ commanded in Luke 21:36. The rest, or ending sentence of Rev 12 is about..................Satan persecuting Jews from AD 70.......until now.
Not Jewish Christians, mind you, but Jews. Including Christians? So the Christian Jews were protected, in the first century or two...........but the nonchristian Jews have been attacked by Satan with pogroms and inquisitions and exiles and holocaust(s)....THAT is the prophecy of Revelation 12.
And it all transpired when (and because) Christ resurrected. Is all this from the genius EJ Young (or whatever his name is)?
As we have seen Luke 21 refers to escaping from the clutches of the world, not escaping from the earth. The latter is all in your imagination. When Christ comes we will all stand before the Son of Man.
Lol. Is that the royal 'we'? The editorial 'we'? The silly 'we'? The you 'we'?
No......you're right. Luke (the same as Matthew and Mark) speaks nothing of prophecy. At least nothing of prophecy of the end times. And if they do, it's all the same: Lord, lead us not into temptation, give us our daily bread, we don't want to be anxious for anything. Well, you have a point. If you're daily close to the Lord like that in everything, then you're qualified to (and will) escape the earth bodily..........just like Enoch did. Unless Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:5-6 is only about Enoch overcoming worldliness and anxiety. Actually it doesn't matter. As long as we have the Lord, we're well.
Whether on earth, or in heaven, or dead, or in Paradise, or in Sheol, or in the tribulation, or with the Lord.
[Rev 14:1-5] is the church at the end of time who are raptured to be with her Lord having fulfilled her ministry.
Do you mean the overcomers within the church? No, you mean the entire church. Then what is Revelation 14:14-16?
(Since I said the two passages refer to the two raptures: overcomers, then the church..........sequentially with all the other
events of chapter 14.) For that matter, why the call to 'overcomers' within the churches, in Revelation 2--3?
Or is that all over and done with since it's the first century?
Those you say are 'raptured' in Rev 14:1-5 because they 'fulfilled' the church's ministry--------do they have any further use?
To God? Or is it just the big, eternal, 'rest' time? Any further use of activity vis a vis Satan? The nations? Or are those all over (by the time of Revelation 14) also? I'm really curious how EJ Young, or whoever's taught you your teaching, 'thinks.' (If 'thinks' is an accurate word.) Why then Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22? More ways of looking at Rev 14:1-5? More descriptions of heaven? More history lessons? More prophecies of church or Israel history the past 2000 years?
Thanks
