Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

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Jan 19, 2013
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#61
You are correctamundo! I do have a viewpoint on this but I learned its not profitable to hash it out with those who have a different view.
The greatest theologians of our time and those past cannot even agree on this but yet they do realize that there is one common denominator: Christ. We need to be getting our spiritual houses in order so we are ready. Christ coming is eminent.
There was no disagreement until less than 200 years ago when a
"pretribulation" rapture was introduced, of which the church had never before heard,
all derived from uncertain private interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles,
to which interpretations some of the "greatest theologians" of our time have succumbed,
which interpretation is in disagreement with certain NT teaching on the subject,
and which prophetic riddles others in the body of Christ interpret entirely differently.

The track record all the way back to the OT of God's people in interpreting unfulfilled prophetic riddles is dismal at best. Certain NT teaching clearly locates the time of the rapture, it's not a riddle.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#62
There are sites that list the verses. Pre/post/mid/and who knows what else (this site is one of many) It is all there.

Pretrib incorporates them all (verses)
Postrib is 100% conjecture.
Perhaps you would like to correctly address the NT teaching which locates the rapture at the end of time, here.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#63
Feel free to quote the book, chapter and verse where the word "dispensation" is found in the Bible. It is certainly not in any of the versions I checked, nor in the Greek.

As for the rapture, that is another verse you might want to quote the book, chapter and verse for. Because the only place you can find it is the Latin Vulgate, which was a bad translation of the Greek.

As for 1 Thess 4:17 - "meet" is ἀπάντησιν or transliterated "apantesin." It means "meet and return" and is only used in two other places in the Bible. The verse simply does NOT say, "go to heaven." We will be returning with Jesus to the New Earth when he returns. If you want me to exegete the word more completely, just ask and I will.

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

Besides, you should never base an entire eschatology on just one verse in the Bible. Bad heremeneutics!
Glad to help you.
Eph 1;9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3;2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Let me guess,this biblical fact has no impact on you right?



As for 1 Thess 4:17 - "meet" is ἀπάντησιν or transliterated "apantesin." It means "meet and return" and is only used in two other places in the Bible. The verse simply does NOT say, "go to heaven." We will be returning with Jesus to the New Earth when he returns. If you want me to exegete the word more completely, just ask and I will.

Omg,you just verified that the Lord RETURNS TO HEAVEN WITH HIS BRIDE,EXACTLY AS THE MODEL EXISTED WITH THE BRIDE/GROOM RETURNING TO THE GROOMS HOUSE.

This is why the other scenarios fail. They are 100% conjecture,as you have inadvertantly pointed out to all of us.



Besides, you should never base an entire eschatology on just one verse in the Bible. Bad heremeneutics!
Uh,no,I have many verses.... my opposition has zero.
BTW,your post proves this.


If you want me to exegete the word more completely, just ask and I will.
Never going to happen, as I have clearly shown the error you ventured into thus far.

You are basing way to much on conjecture. Real VERSES please,not man's imagination.
 
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P

popeye

Guest
#64
The Pre Rapture teaching has been around only since the start of the 19th century. It is popular to many because lets face it
who wants to experience tribulation. That dosnt make it right. There is not oine scripture that says Christians will avoid tribulation, just the opposite Jesus said to his Disciples that in the world they would have tribulation. There are many other places where it mentions tribulation and hardship. The main confusion regarding this is that people confuse tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same. Christians will experience tribulation at the hands of Satan through the Antichrist. The wrath of God will be unleashed on the unbelieving world. The rapture actually happens at the same time that the sixth seal in revelation is opened and the wrath of God on the world begins through the Trumpet and Vial judgements.
All conjecture.

Factor in some facts.

The AC kills all w/o the mark,so how in the world do you assume a midtrib rapture?????

There are no saints to rapture alive. mid trib.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#65
Historicist/preterist still ,to this day, do not realise ,
"dispensation" is what God uses in his word
.
To reconcile itself to the Bible, dispensational eschatology requires duplication of events and things which are the same, resulting in:

1) two second comings (the one the Bible locates after the tribulation; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation),

2) two first resurrections (the one the Bible locates after the tribulation--Rev 20:4-6; and the one dispensationalsim locates before the tribulation),

3) two last trumpets (the one the Biblle locates after the tribulation--Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rev 10:7, 11:15; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation),

4) two bodies of Christ (the redeemed in Christ which the Bible locates on earth during the tribulation; and the bride of the Lamb which dispensationalsim locates in heaven during the tribulation, and which does not include the body of Christ on earth),

5) two temporal earthly kingdoms (the one the Bible inaugurates at Christ's first coming--Da 2:44;
Lk 11:20; Jn 18:36; Ro 14:17; and the one dispensationalism inaugurates at Christ's second second; i.e., third, coming),

6) two final world battles (the Armageddon which the Bible locates at the end of the tribulation and temporal Messianic kingdom--Rev 16:16, 19:19, 20:7-9; and the battle dispensationalsim locates at the end of its second temporal Messianic kingdom--Rev 20:7-9),

7) two final judgments (the judgment of all mankind which the Bible locates at the end of time--
Da 12:2; Rev 20:11-15; Mt 25:31-33, 16:27; Jn 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 11:24; Ac 17:31; 2Pe 3:7, 11-13; 2Tim 4:1--KJV; Ro 2:16, 14:10; 1Co 1:8, 3:11-15, 4:5, 5:5, 15:22-24; 2Co 5:10; Php 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1Jn 4:17; and the one dispensationalism locates at the beginning of the tribulation).

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which the Bible does not teach, it must duplicate events and things which are the same, so as not to unseat the Bible's location of these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.

Nor do we find seven dispensations taught anywhere.
The Bible knows only two dispensations (Heb 10:9) since Adam (Heb 11:4):
the Old (Heb 8:7, 13) and the New (Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6; Heb 8:6, 9:15),

both of grace (Ge 15:6; Gal 3:17-18; Heb 11),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows (Heb 8:5), and
the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Col 2:17; Heb 10:1).

And if the Bible doesn't teach them, then we really don't know them (1Co 4:6).
They are a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is fond of and wedded to,
thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy).
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
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#66
Glad to help you.
Eph 1;9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3;2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Let me guess,this biblical fact has no impact on you right?






Omg,you just verified that the Lord RETURNS TO HEAVEN WITH HIS BRIDE,EXACTLY AS THE MODEL EXISTED WITH THE BRIDE/GROOM RETURNING TO THE GROOMS HOUSE.

This is why the other scenarios fail. They are 100% conjecture,as you have inadvertantly pointed out to all of us.





Uh,no,I have many verses.... my opposition has zero.
BTW,your post proves this.




Never going to happen, as I have clearly shown the error you ventured into thus far.

You are basing way to much on conjecture. Real VERSES please,not man's imagination.

Hmm! Neither ESV nor the Greek say "dispensation." KJV wrongly translates the word οἰκονομίαν or oikonomian as "dispensation" when in fact it means "household management, administration" from the root word οἰκος which means "house or household." No mention of times, or dispensations, unless the KJ English is far, far from modern English. Strange how Darby and Scofield could focus an entire wrong interpretation on the bible on such a bad translation - I guess they probably didn't know Greek!

"as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1:10 ESV

"
εἰς οἰκονομίαν τοῦ πληρώματος τῶν καιρῶν, ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τὰ πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἐπὶ τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς· ἐν αὐτῷ," Eph. 1:10 Greek


Let me re-explain what 1 Thess 4:17 says in the Greek, lest you be fooled into thinking your imaginary rapture is correct.

"
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 KJV

"
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"
ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The word
ἀπάντησιν or apantesin means "meeting". It is actually not a verb, as in both ESV and KJV, but a noun. However, it is a word used only three times in the New Testament. So Paul has a special use for it here, the one which a Greek speaking person would understand. The word apantesin had a tehnical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation, who went out from the city, and then would be ceremonially escorted the visitor BACK TO THE CITY.

In other words, we will not be returning with Jesus back to heaven, but rather he will be escorted by us, as he is the dignitary as he comes to the new earth. We are the ones going back not Jesus! He is the one arriving for his people!
And we will escort him back to earth.

The other two uses of this word are Matt. 25:6 and Acts 28:15.

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt. 25:6


The virgins come out to meet the bridegroom and escort him BACK to the chamber.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage.16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15

In the third Scripture, the people come out from Rome to meet with Paul and escort him BACK to Rome. The people always return to the place from which they have come, the dignitary coming with them.

So simple! I would suggest you to get a copy of The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L Rogers Jr, and Cleon L. Rogers III, both scholars of Greek and exegetical studies to further your study, and for you to see for yourself how FALSE this rapture nonsense is!






 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#67
Hmm! Neither ESV nor the Greek say "dispensation." KJV wrongly translates the word οἰκονομίαν or oikonomian as "dispensation" when in fact it means "household management, administration" from the root word οἰκος which means "house or household." No mention of times, or dispensations, unless the KJ English is far, far from modern English. Strange how Darby and Scofield could focus an entire wrong interpretation on the bible on such a bad translation - I guess they probably didn't know Greek!

"as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1:10 ESV

"
εἰς οἰκονομίαν τοῦ πληρώματος τῶν καιρῶν, ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τὰ πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, τὰ ἐπὶ τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς· ἐν αὐτῷ," Eph. 1:10 Greek


Let me re-explain what 1 Thess 4:17 says in the Greek, lest you be fooled into thinking your imaginary rapture is correct.

"
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 KJV

"
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:17 ESV

"
ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess. 4:17 Greek

The word
ἀπάντησιν or apantesin means "meeting". It is actually not a verb, as in both ESV and KJV, but a noun. However, it is a word used only three times in the New Testament. So Paul has a special use for it here, the one which a Greek speaking person would understand. The word apantesin had a tehnical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens, or a deputation, who went out from the city, and then would be ceremonially escorted the visitor BACK TO THE CITY.

In other words, we will not be returning with Jesus back to heaven, but rather he will be escorted by us, as he is the dignitary as he comes to the new earth. We are the ones going back not Jesus! He is the one arriving for his people!
And we will escort him back to earth.

The other two uses of this word are Matt. 25:6 and Acts 28:15.

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt. 25:6


The virgins come out to meet the bridegroom and escort him BACK to the chamber.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage.16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him." Acts 28:15

In the third Scripture, the people come out from Rome to meet with Paul and escort him BACK to Rome. The people always return to the place from which they have come, the dignitary coming with them.

So simple! I would suggest you to get a copy of The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament by Cleon L Rogers Jr, and Cleon L. Rogers III, both scholars of Greek and exegetical studies to further your study, and for you to see for yourself how FALSE this rapture nonsense is!






But we do not 'go out to meet the LORD'. We are 'caught up to meet Him in the air; so that we shall ever be with Him. It is a totally different concept.
 
T

tanach

Guest
#68
I respect your point of view without agreeing to it. Your reply is basically your interpretation of scripture. It doesnt necessarily make it the right one.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,396
113
#69
The Pre Rapture teaching has been around only since the start of the 19th century. It is popular to many because lets face it
who wants to experience tribulation. That dosnt make it right. There is not oine scripture that says Christians will avoid tribulation, just the opposite Jesus said to his Disciples that in the world they would have tribulation. There are many other places where it mentions tribulation and hardship. The main confusion regarding this is that people confuse tribulation with the wrath of God. They are not the same. Christians will experience tribulation at the hands of Satan through the Antichrist. The wrath of God will be unleashed on the unbelieving world. The rapture actually happens at the same time that the sixth seal in revelation is opened and the wrath of God on the world begins through the Trumpet and Vial judgements.
Amen to that.....

Tribulation<--thilipsis pressure, persecution, tribulation
Wrath<--orge....fiery indignation of God

Through MUCH tribulation (thilipsis) we enter the kingdom of God, but we have been saved from WRATH (orge) through him (Christ)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
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#70
You guys we can all debate about the timing of the rapture but in the end we all know how this thread is going to up right?
 
F

flob

Guest
#71
But we do not 'go out to meet the LORD'. We are 'caught up to meet Him in the air; so that we shall ever be with Him. It is a totally different concept.
No it isn't. It's the same concept
 
B

bondservant

Guest
#72
If you don't understand what the pre-trib is all about I'll explain it on the way up.
 

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
697
50
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#73
I haven't read all of the posts, but if it hasn't been mentioned yet there is an interesting site where the author has been able to match up all of the prophecies so far, in order in Revelation and Daniel 11. If interested the site is daniel11truth.com. He's a pre trib. guy. Looks like he may be on to something.
 
F

flob

Guest
#74
God's people are never intended to suffer His wrath. We will not be here when that happens; the church is no longer here after the third chapter of Revelation. The word rapture is not in the Bible but catching away is the meaning of the Greek in Thessalonians. Jesus said to watch and pray that you might escape the things to come. Unfortunately I do not have my Bible here at work with me to find the scriptures.
'Watch and pray that...' means that participation in the pretrib rapture is conditional. Not automatic.
So to say that 'the church is no longer here' is untrue. Some of the church is, some isn't.

In regard to Revelation 4's call to John to 'come up here,' there is no need to talk about the rapture obliquely, or indirectly.
Both raptures are plainly indicated in Rv 12 and 14; as well as implied in Rv 3; 7; 11; 15; 16; 17; 18; and 19.







When the rapture happens, we will meet Jesus in the air. That is not His second return. His second return is when He puts His feet down on the Mount of Olives. The wedding supper is just before that, and we obviously would have to be there to have a wedding supper.
The pretrib rapture is to the heavens, not to the air. The end-trib rapture is to the air. Both are part of His second return. His Parousia. He travels from heavens to air, and from there to the earth. Yes, He will land on the same place He ascended from.
The Mount of Olives. (I never heard anyone deny Christ returns to the Mount of Olives.....until here. How odd! How absurd and shameful. It could be symptomatic of something worse, some conscious? subconscious form of Arianism? Lord, come quickly!)







The escaping in [Lk 21:36] does not refer to disappearing from the earth. It refers to escaping from being weighed down with the cares and problems of this world.
Maybe you can tell that to Enoch. If you meet him.
21:36's 'escape' is to 'stand before the Son of Man.'
The Son of Man is in the heavens.






[Rev 3:10] has in mind 1st century AD. It was a church to which John was writing.
Right-----------Revelation's not written to the church later. At least not chapters 2--3.
There's nothing distantly-prophetic about the Spirit's letters to the 7 churches.
There's nothing particularly 'special' about the end of this age.
In fact, Christ doesn't return to earth.......He just makes a close fly-by then rushes back
to heaven where He came from.







But [Mt 24 'taken and left'] refers to being ready for Christ's coming and the accompanying rapture, rather than being left behind to face God's final judgment.
Why the 'but' when that's what I said?








Actually it does not refer to anyone remaining behind. You are simply inventing it. Those who are not taken will immediately face final judgment.
Yes, thanks. I invented the word 'left.' The final judgment happens when Christ returns. Not after the Millenium.
In fact, I'm inventing the Millenium also. Millenium = 1000 years. That's not in the Bible. Nowhere. Especially not Revelation 20. It doesn't mention it six times.





What an imagination you have LOL. The first reaping is the rapture and resurrection of the saints. The second is the final judgment on unbelievers. Both described in terms of harvest. As with the other verses at the end of time Christ gathers His own and visits the rest with judgment.
That's right. All farmers know that there's no such thing as early ripening. There's only the one big harvest at the end.
I never get tomatoes in July. I have to wait until September. If I get any in July--------I just imagined them.
But give reign to your peculiar reading of the Bible: Rev 14:1-5 is 'the rapture and resurrection of the saints'------
then what does 144,000 mean? And why separate 1-5 from 14-16? Since they're the same event. Or, if they aren't,
then what is 1-5 talking about?





The manchild is primarily Christ, but because we are in Him it secondarily includes His church
To the contrary:
Rv 12's manchild is the overcomers within the church. As promised in chapter 2 (and chapter 3).
Or is that 'nonsense' also? What are overcomers (within the churches) in 2--3?
Since there are 7 promises to them, do they have any importance? Any mention or suggestion further in the
book of Revelation? Why, other than your opinion, is 'the manchild primarily Christ'? Because traditionally that's so?
Then why is the woman not Mary? Why do we, or anyone, need to be told in Revelation that Christ descended from within
the nation of Israel? At the least after chapters 1--3, we have a narrative of the future, from John onward. All the way to chapter 22. So why a 'lesson,' figurative at that, on the Incarnation suddenly in chapter 12? Because..........the readers forget
that Christ incarnated? In case anyone missed that?






you mean it is your mistake not to recognise the obvious in pursuit of your outlandish theories? The manchild was recognised as Christ long before there was a Roman Catholic church. In the context it is crystal clear unless you have a theory to expound.
What is outlandish about Christ returning to earth with His saints? You prefer He return alone?
Your Satanic theory prefers that He not touch earth at all? So as not to soil His feet? Or you want to reiterate
your heresy that Christ is not Jehovah (Zech 14)?
You're silly in this regard, Mr Valiant. The manchild 'was recognized' as Christ....
Pardon me, please. I didn't realize it's already been 'recognized.' All you had to do was say that, ex cathedra,
for me to believe the interpretation.

Since, 'in the context' it is crystal clear to you, then maybe someday when you have time you can elaborate on what you think the context of Rv 12, and 12:5 in particular, is.





The woman is clearly identified as Israel by the sun moon and twelve stars..
My interpretation, that the woman represents all of God's people since Adam, matches Joseph's dream
in that Christ's family is much bigger now. Paul even calls me part of the 'Israel of God.' In Galatians.
Jesus' and John's point being that there is a stronger part----overcomers----within all of God's people
fro m the start until now. That is the manchild. The overcomers. It is not a foreign thought. It's is found in
the start of Revelation. Chapters 2--3. Which is also visible in chapter 6 praying for vengeance, which overcomers
is what God in Christ as the Spirit is working and waiting for, and which gives God the ground and accomplishment to
finish Satan's time. Carry out his sentence. Which is what happens in Revelation 12. Satan is cast out to the earth, and
is wroth, knowing he has but a short time.
But that's a) outlandish, and b) my theory, and c) my imagination. It has nothing to do with reality.
Your 'reality' is that believers go to heaven when they die.
But I request to hear it anyway: What is the point, in the context of the book of Revelation, such as chapters 5--11 on the seals, then chapters 13 on the beast, and 14 on.............whatever you want to fantasize it is on...............
what is the point of chapter 12's 'lesson on Israel'? Is it for the Antichrist's benefit? Or is the Antichrist ancient history only?







the woman is collective as Israel was often depicted as a woman. The manchild is both individual - Christ - and collective in including His church. But in Rev 12 the emphasis is on the manchild representing Christ.
Is the church ever depicted as a woman? In Ephesians 5? In John 3? Not in Ephesians 5? Not in John 3? Nowhere? Anywhere?
For that matter, is the church ever labelled as 'Israel'? In Galatians? Not in Galatians?
A feature I've noticed about your manner of interpretation is that you're free to be inconsistent, literarily. You said something about the seals being consecutive, but then the 7th seal is not---it is just an elaboration of the earlier seals? Did you say something similar about the 7 days in Genesis? How some represented eons....while others were 24-hour periods?

Anyway, to humor you, to go along with you: The lesson is that Christ and the church descended from the heritage of Israel?
Great. Thanks for clearing Revelation 12 up. I knew it has nothing to do with prophecy.





Nonsense. the first resurrection is that of Christ. Believers participate in it when they become His (Rev 20.4-5). We live and reign with Christ (Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1-3; Rev 20.4-5). It has nothing to do with the rapture.
Likewise. Your mixing of physical resurrection and regeneration in their descriptions is nonsense. It's so nonsensical...it's tiresome. You left off debating this last time we 'wrestled.'
But to take up your silliness for a moment: since you think you go to heaven when you die, how is that not 'taking up'?
That's all that the Biblical translation 'rapture/raptio (Latin)' means. Do you prefer the word 'ascends'? 'Ascension'?
Does ascending have anything to do with the 'soul resurrection' you believe in? In fact, spiritually, do not believers both resurrect AND ascend? To be seated in the heavenlies in Christ? If so, is it just the letters r,a,p,t,u,r,e that have you so much in a tizzy? Why?






as the manchild is Christ He is pre everything. it is not talking about a pre-tribrapture.
No, of course not. I made up the words 'caught up' in Revelation 12:5. They are not there.
And they're certainly not there about Christ. Christ ascended. He wasn't 'caught up.'
Right? Am I repeating your teaching accurately? And Christ is pre everything. THAT is the lesson, the point, of Revelation 12.
There is no Mary in the wilderness, lol, no Israel running to hide for 1260 days.........no Israel being protected by God for that long.............because God wants Israel, or the church, to be persecuted. Escape is cowardly. God has no need of a pretrib rapture. He doesn't need any help. Certainly no help-meet. That is not God's eternal purpose. Right?
Christ is pre-everything. It's not good that the man be alone---------doesn't apply to Christ. If you ask me, He doesn't even
need to do an earth-fly-by. He can take care of it all from His throne in heaven. (All He really wants is for us to go to heaven when we die)







yes it is the early Jewish church which was left behind when Christ rose from the dead as described in Acts 1-12..
Ok. Sorry. I humbly apologize for asking you to interpret Rev 12. Here it is! It's all.............over. It's...........the book of Acts all over again. Except this time in 'ambiguous,' mysterious, figurative, language. All John (and Luke), and Jesus for that matter, could really communicate about in the first century was..............the first century. In case I misread or missed Acts,
here I can summarize Acts 1--12 in...........Revelation 12! Thanks-----I knew there has to be a purpose for Revelation 12.

The church in Jerusalem was 'left behind' (rather than being ascended.......oops, I mean raptured........oops no, I mean ascended......no, I mean caught up? Taken away? To paradise, lol, in the 3rd heavens).......so that we all could eventually receive the gospel. Makes sense to me.






LOL you are too hypnotised by left behind theology. The remainder of her seed were the church in the dispersion.
Thanks for saving me from that left-behind theology. Though 'theology' is an inaccurate term for............'eschatology' do they call it? And, yes, since Christians suffer persecution, it's anti-Christ to pray to escape anything, like Christ commanded in Luke 21:36. The rest, or ending sentence of Rev 12 is about..................Satan persecuting Jews from AD 70.......until now.
Not Jewish Christians, mind you, but Jews. Including Christians? So the Christian Jews were protected, in the first century or two...........but the nonchristian Jews have been attacked by Satan with pogroms and inquisitions and exiles and holocaust(s)....THAT is the prophecy of Revelation 12.
And it all transpired when (and because) Christ resurrected. Is all this from the genius EJ Young (or whatever his name is)?





As we have seen Luke 21 refers to escaping from the clutches of the world, not escaping from the earth. The latter is all in your imagination. When Christ comes we will all stand before the Son of Man.
Lol. Is that the royal 'we'? The editorial 'we'? The silly 'we'? The you 'we'?
No......you're right. Luke (the same as Matthew and Mark) speaks nothing of prophecy. At least nothing of prophecy of the end times. And if they do, it's all the same: Lord, lead us not into temptation, give us our daily bread, we don't want to be anxious for anything. Well, you have a point. If you're daily close to the Lord like that in everything, then you're qualified to (and will) escape the earth bodily..........just like Enoch did. Unless Gen 5:24 and Heb 11:5-6 is only about Enoch overcoming worldliness and anxiety. Actually it doesn't matter. As long as we have the Lord, we're well.
Whether on earth, or in heaven, or dead, or in Paradise, or in Sheol, or in the tribulation, or with the Lord.






[Rev 14:1-5] is the church at the end of time who are raptured to be with her Lord having fulfilled her ministry.
Do you mean the overcomers within the church? No, you mean the entire church. Then what is Revelation 14:14-16?
(Since I said the two passages refer to the two raptures: overcomers, then the church..........sequentially with all the other
events of chapter 14.) For that matter, why the call to 'overcomers' within the churches, in Revelation 2--3?
Or is that all over and done with since it's the first century?

Those you say are 'raptured' in Rev 14:1-5 because they 'fulfilled' the church's ministry--------do they have any further use?
To God? Or is it just the big, eternal, 'rest' time? Any further use of activity vis a vis Satan? The nations? Or are those all over (by the time of Revelation 14) also? I'm really curious how EJ Young, or whoever's taught you your teaching, 'thinks.' (If 'thinks' is an accurate word.) Why then Revelation 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and 22? More ways of looking at Rev 14:1-5? More descriptions of heaven? More history lessons? More prophecies of church or Israel history the past 2000 years?
Thanks
 
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Jan 25, 2015
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#76
LOL how we play with Scripture. There is absolutely no justification for making years into thousands of years or days into years just because of Ezekiel or any other Scripture.

Furthermore we do not know what betrothal and marriage customs pertained in the days of Jesus. Your descriptions are of post Christian Judaism. Thus the whole basis of your theory is Judaism (what Christ rejected), not Christianity.

There will not be a Great Tribulation period. That is past history. Nor are there any grounds for thinking that the Rapture will take place prior to the end of time. It is all pure speculation.
Valiant, I believe in the Hebrew God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. My Bible tells me that God is a non-changing God and as a result I serve the same God with the same values as the God who created heaven and earth :)

We can argue this back and forth but I am not going to do it. If you don't believe me... good. The Bible tells us to trust nobody. Why not find out from God yourself and if you are convinced otherwise I am fine with that :)

Good luck with your search for God friend.
 
T

tanach

Guest
#77
If post tribulationists are Arian heretics then every notable Christian back from the days of Polycarp to Wesley are heretics
as well. There are now four major positions on this subject. I resent being called a Heretic for not buying in to this 19th
Century fantasy.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#78
If post tribulationists are Arian heretics then every notable Christian back from the days of Polycarp to Wesley are heretics
as well. There are now four major positions on this subject. I resent being called a Heretic for not buying in to this 19th
Century fantasy.
just console yourself on the fact that if the heretics call you a heretic you are probably on the right track :)
 
B

bondservant

Guest
#79
Saints, as we well know this discussion has no resolve because we lack solid proof on both views. I am pre trib and you are aware of the arguments there so I need not go any further. Since it is a non salvation issue I deem in a topic of view point. The belief or unbelief does not matter. I will say this if I have to go through the tribulation I do not look forward to it. I think it would be foolish for one to even consider it would be a walk in the park sorta speak. And if the Lord carries and my kids and grandkids face this what a awful thought. So I do look for our Lord in the air the rapture if you will and hope that it is true so that my fellow saints and family members are spared from the troubles to come. I see nothing wrong with that.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#80
Saints, as we well know this discussion has no resolve because we lack solid proof on both views. I am pre trib and you are aware of the arguments there so I need not go any further. Since it is a non salvation issue I deem in a topic of view point. The belief or unbelief does not matter. I will say this if I have to go through the tribulation I do not look forward to it. I think it would be foolish for one to even consider it would be a walk in the park sorta speak. And if the Lord carries and my kids and grandkids face this what a awful thought. So I do look for our Lord in the air the rapture if you will and hope that it is true so that my fellow saints and family members are spared from the troubles to come. I see nothing wrong with that.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess. 4:18

The body of Christ should not be looking for tribulation and anquish - we are not to be looking for the son of perdition - we are not to be looking for seasons and times . . . but we are to be Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13