Predestination is misunderstood...

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
How do you know Adam and Eve had not been munching on he tree of life already?

Because they would not have been able to change when they fell...

That is why the Lord kept them from that tree after they fell.

That does not follow logically at all. There is nothing that says the tree of life gives permanent life. In fact Rev. 22:1-2 says the saints have on-going permanent access to the tree of life, with 12 fruits and healing leaves. Why would this be necessary for the resurrected saints?

 

[Genez]

PaulThomson said:
How do you know Adam and Eve had not been munching on he tree of life already?


That does not follow logically at all. There is nothing that says the tree of life gives permanent life. In fact Rev. 22:1-2 says the saints have on-going permanent access to the tree of life, with 12 fruits and healing leaves. Why would this be necessary for the resurrected saints?

​

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the Lord ​

God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be ​

allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. Genesis 3:21-22​

​

There it is!


grace and peace ..............

 

[sawdust]

Adam's immortality was contingent on him continuing to eat from the tree of life. God took away his access to that tree, and so he lost the source of his immortality.

There was no command to eat from the tree of life so immortality was not contingent on the tree either before or after the fall. Adam was never immortal, if he were, God could not say "you will die".

Immortality means one cannot die under any circumstances so unless you think God died on the Cross, the Son did not go from immortality to mortality. His humanity was always mortal and if not for our sin Christ would not have died.

 

[sawdust]

The Son went from being immortal to being mortal to being immortal. So your idea that one cannot go from one to the other is wrong.

Adam's immortality was contingent on him continuing to eat from the tree of life. God took away his access to that tree, and so he lost the source of his immortality.

I agree that we don't die the first physical death because we sin. That death is inevitable, because we are Adam's seed. Even Jesus hd to die, because he is Adam's seed, even though He did not deserve to die.

He was the seed of the woman not Adam's seed except in name (title), Son of Man.

 

[PaulThomson]

There was no command to eat from the tree of life so immortality was not contingent on the tree either before or after the fall. Adam was never immortal, if he were, God could not say "you will die".

"You may eat from every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.". The tree of life was in the garden.

Your claims are mere assertions. there is no logic behind them.

 

[Genez]

"You may eat from every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.". The tree of life was in the garden.

Your claims are mere assertions. there is no logic behind them.

Logic states that you did not read post 4982....

https://christianchat.com/threads/predestination-is-misunderstood.214056/post-5278220

 

[PaulThomson]

If they did not know what God considered to be sin, there would be no reason for them to consider themselves or anyone else to be sinning against God.

When we judge what others do as unacceptable and do the same things ourselves, we know that what we are doing is also unacceptable.

 

[PaulThomson]

​

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the Lord ​

God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be ​

allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. Genesis 3:21-22​

​

There it is!


grace and peace ..............

The man is become as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-put-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The verb chain of we-qatal verbs begins with an imperfect/incomplete form, and the subsequent verbs prefixed with w- although perfect forms are to be understood as conveying imperfect meaning, according to the use of such we-qatal verb chains. So the text says​

" The man is become (qal completed/perfect) as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-keep-putting-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-keep-taking (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-keep-eating (qal sequential perfect) and-keep-living (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The Hebrew sees these four actions as on-going into the future, not as completed at one time and the consequence enduring forever .​

The verb "has become" is a complete/perfect form so this is a permanent state resulting from the single action of disobeying.​

 

[Genez]

The man is become as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-put-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The verb chain of we-qatal verbs begins with an imperfect/incomplete form, and the subsequent verbs prefixed with w- although perfect forms are to be understood as conveying imperfect meaning, according to the use of such we-qatal verb chains. So the text says​

" The man is become (qal completed/perfect) as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-keep-putting-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-keep-taking (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-keep-eating (qal sequential perfect) and-keep-living (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The Hebrew sees these four actions as on-going into the future, not as completed at one time and the consequence enduring forever .​

The verb "has become" is a complete/perfect form so this is a permanent state resulting from the single action of disobeying.​

Let us consider what you claimed for a moment....

Your rationalization (if it were true) means that God was going to let Adam starve to death...

Nonsense.

Where you getting that exegesis from?

 

[PaulThomson]

Let us consider what you claimed for a moment....

Your rationalization (if it were true) means that God was going to let Adam starve to death...

Nonsense.

I don't think I have the time to untangle the way your brain functions when it comes to the Bible, Genez.

Lets talk about something else. Where is your favorite place to holiday?

 

[PaulThomson]

Let us consider what you claimed for a moment....

Your rationalization (if it were true) means that God was going to let Adam starve to death...

Nonsense.

I don't think I have the time to untangle the way your brain functions when it comes to the Bible, Genez.

Lets talk about something else. Where is your favorite place to holiday?

 

[Genez]

The man is become as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-put-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The verb chain of we-qatal verbs begins with an imperfect/incomplete form, and the subsequent verbs prefixed with w- although perfect forms are to be understood as conveying imperfect meaning, according to the use of such we-qatal verb chains. So the text says​

" The man is become (qal completed/perfect) as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-keep-putting-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-keep-taking (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-keep-eating (qal sequential perfect) and-keep-living (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The Hebrew sees these four actions as on-going into the future, not as completed at one time and the consequence enduring forever .​

The verb "has become" is a complete/perfect form so this is a permanent state resulting from the single action of disobeying.​

If what you say were true?

The Adam would forever be knowing good and evil.

But, in eternity, after all the lORD's enemies have been put away... that would become a false statement.

 

[Genez]

I don't think I have the time to untangle the way your brain functions when it comes to the Bible, Genez.

Lets talk about something else. Where is your favorite place to holiday?

You're gaslighting....... And, manipulating......

 

[Genez]

The man is become as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-put-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The verb chain of we-qatal verbs begins with an imperfect/incomplete form, and the subsequent verbs prefixed with w- although perfect forms are to be understood as conveying imperfect meaning, according to the use of such we-qatal verb chains. So the text says​

" The man is become (qal completed/perfect) as one of us, for to know good and evil. And-now lest he-keep-putting-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-keep-taking (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-keep-eating (qal sequential perfect) and-keep-living (qal sequential perfect) forever.​

​

The Hebrew sees these four actions as on-going into the future, not as completed at one time and the consequence enduring forever .​

The verb "has become" is a complete/perfect form so this is a permanent state resulting from the single action of disobeying.​

God was preventing the action from happening that you claim Adam had already been doing....

God did not want Adam to eat of the tree that would cause him to live forever in his fallen state.
Because? If Adam had done so?
Then Adam would have then been able to keep on eating from the tree forever..

That is a much better interpretation of your translation.

For your reasoning to be true it would have to read as follows..


And-now lest he-put-forth AGAIN (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.

Its not to be found that way....

​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When we judge what others do as unacceptable and do the same things ourselves, we know that what we are doing is also unacceptable.

Romans 2:1-4 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
.

 

[PaulThomson]

If what you say were true?

The Adam would forever be knowing good and evil.

But, in eternity, after all the lORD's enemies have been put away... that would become a false statement.

God is not going to lobotomise us so we cannot remember anything bad. What will happen is that we will be able to see it from other have perspectives that convert all the evil we have known into valuable wisdom that we can use to inform our future decisions.

 

[Genez]

God is not going to lobotomise us so we cannot remember anything bad. What will happen is that we will be able to see it from other have perspectives that convert all the evil we have known into valuable wisdom that we can use to inform our future decisions.

That's not what I was saying....

There will come a point when good and evil cease to exist.
In your scenario Adam would forever being know good and evil. Not simply knowing 'about' good and evil.

Now we must know good and evil as our means to navigate through the fallen creation.

 

[Mem]

God is not going to lobotomise us so we cannot remember anything bad. What will happen is that we will be able to see it from other have perspectives that convert all the evil we have known into valuable wisdom that we can use to inform our future decisions.

Would you consider this the reality of 'the smoke of their torment'?

 

[PaulThomson]

For your reasoning to be true it would have to read as follows..


And-now lest he-put-forth AGAIN (qal imperfect his-hand and-take (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-eat (qal sequential perfect) and-live (qal sequential perfect) forever.

Its not to be found that way....

it says,

"And-now lest he-keep-putting-forth (qal imperfect his-hand and-keeps-tainge (qal sequential perfect) also from-the-tree of-life and-keeps-eating (qal sequential perfect) and-keep-living (qal sequential perfect) forever.

Again and again and again and again is intrinsic to the Hebrew tenses used.

 

[PaulThomson]

Would you consider this the reality of 'the smoke of their torment'?

Yes. When we see the smoke we will understand its cause from perspectives that makes the judgment of the wicked just and loving and good. The smoke is perhaps a never-ending reminder of God's righteous judgment, but the source of the smoke (the torment of the wicked) may not be. The genitive "of their torment", can mean "from their torment".