Predestination is misunderstood...

[Magenta]

There is no scripture that says he was not eating from the tree of life before eating the forbidden fruit, so your thinking that He didn't goes against what scripture actually said. I didn't say Adam did eat. I only pointed out that he could have eaten previously from the tree of life. I was countering an argument that relied on assuming that Adam didn't.

What Scripture actually says is:

And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Therefore
the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

There is zero indication anywhere that Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, and every indication that he
would have lived forever after if he had. Sorry, Paul, but your position holds no water, as the saying goes.

God breathed life into Adam. You are essentially saying Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to be alive.

I've seen others try to float this theory before. It does not float.

 

[Genez]

and-keeps-taking.

A typo I missed until after the 5 min edit window.

You were tainge too long...

 

[Genez]

An endless future without any challenges? Does that sound fun?

With new kinds of challenges.... Not the same old kind anymore.

For example:

Some of us who should so 'qualify ' to be promoted to be made able to do so - (gold, silver, and precious stones). 1 Cor 3:11-15

The Lord will call you before Him, and before all the elect angels.
He will call you by your new name.

Then the Lord might present before you a wonderful challenge ...

There is before your resurrection eyes a barren planet that He created.

After viewing it for a while, He will tell you...

"Imagine all of it's plant and creature life as you would love to see it.... ​

​

Now... ​

​

Look! ​

​

It is now as you wished for it to be!"​

........ why get bored with that old kindergarten good and evil problem solving? Boring!

grace and peace !

 

[Genez]

An endless future without any challenges? Does that sound fun?

During the Millennium ...

If chosen to reign with Him on earth for 1000 years?

Then you will need to relate to good and evil.

That is why He now has us exposed to demented politicians, so we can see how its not to be done....

grace and peace ....................

 

[sawdust]

Something or someone can be incorruptible or immortal under present conditions, but become corruptible or mortal under a change of circumstances. If I have a Stainless steel coated bench-top, it may have no flaws and be rust-proof. But if the integrity of the surface is weakened and cracked, it become subject to corrosion.

As long as Adam and Eve lived and confomed to the requirements of God, they had access to the tree of life and would not die. But after disobeying, they lost integrity and became liable to increasing corruption, and began to die. Without access to the tree of life, death eventually overcame them.

Mate, you don't seem to understand the meaning of immortal. Your analogy is useless because while your bench top may be pristine when it is new, it is still subject to decay. This does not mean it will necessarily decay if looked after properly but it is still subject.

To be immortal means it is impossible to be subject to death under any and all conditions. God alone is immortal and now Christ as His first fruits, but the rest of us have to wait for the Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Adam and Eve were not immortal, they could potentially die at any time but wouldn't die as long as they never sinned. And it wasn't the tree of life that kept them alive, as there was no command requiring they had to eat to stay alive, for the source of all life is the LORD God Himself.

We do agree though, after eating, they lost integrity. This I have been saying all along. There is "another law" at work in the body, a genetic corruption that is passed on down through the male line. We call it the sin nature and it's what we inherited from Adam and because we have this corruption, God cannot impart a human spirit to us as our spirit is born of God the Spirit and He cannot associate Himself with lawlessness (sin). Hence we are born spiritually dead and physically dying, some of us dying quicker than others.

 

[Genez]

"You may eat from every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.". The tree of life was in the garden.

Your claims are mere assertions. there is no logic behind them.

Without someone knowing your particular rendering of exegesis?
It would be unjust to make such a claim about "logic."
Whereas it appears? You are the one being being illogical..

But, I have been studying your claim.
I see a way to make it possibly work.

grace and peace ...................

 

[PaulThomson]

Mate, you don't seem to understand the meaning of immortal. Your analogy is useless because while your bench top may be pristine when it is new, it is still subject to decay. This does not mean it will necessarily decay if looked after properly but it is still subject.

To be immortal means it is impossible to be subject to death under any and all conditions. God alone is immortal and now Christ as His first fruits, but the rest of us have to wait for the Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Adam and Eve were not immortal, they could potentially die at any time but wouldn't die as long as they never sinned. And it wasn't the tree of life that kept them alive, as there was no command requiring they had to eat to stay alive, for the source of all life is the LORD God Himself.

We do agree though, after eating, they lost integrity. This I have been saying all along. There is "another law" at work in the body, a genetic corruption that is passed on down through the male line. We call it the sin nature and it's what we inherited from Adam and because we have this corruption, God cannot impart a human spirit to us as our spirit is born of God the Spirit and He cannot associate Himself with lawlessness (sin). Hence we are born spiritually dead and physically dying, some of us dying quicker than others.

There were several Greek gods who lost their immortality. How is it possible for people to imagine immortal gods losing their immortality, if the word means what you insist it means?
God in in Psalm 82:6-7 warns the council of the gods that they will die like men because of their unfaithful service as guardians over the nations..

 

[sawdust]

There were several Greek gods who lost their immortality. How is it possible for people to imagine immortal gods losing their immortality, if the word means what you insist it means?
God in in Psalm 82:6-7 warns the council of the gods that they will die like men because of their unfaithful service as guardians over the nations..

There are none who have immortality save God alone. The only other who has immortality are those to whom God gives it. You are assuming angels were created immortal rather than being given immortality as a reward for their obedience. Your Psalm calls them "mighty", not immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

 

[PaulThomson]

What Scripture actually says is:

And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Therefore
the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

There is zero indication anywhere that Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, and every indication that he
would have lived forever after if he had. Sorry, Paul, but your position holds no water, as the saying goes.

God breathed life into Adam. You are essentially saying Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to be alive.

I've seen others try to float this theory before. It does not float.

No. I am suggesting that it is possible that Adam and Eve were eating already from the tree of life, and that occasionally eating from it was necessary to keep on living. Revelation 22:1-2 says we will have continual access to the tree of Life in the new creation.

 

[Genez]

Mans human nature was created by God and is still alive but living with a spiritual nature that is alive to death.

You are confusing 'soul life' for spiritual life.

All mystics have a supernatural 'soul life.'

To have a 'spiritual life' God needs to regenerate the soul to having a human spirit, so that person can know truths of God.

Many who think they are spiritual, are actually soulish, with a strong connection to the cosmic powers of the Devil's world.

The "natural man' as translated in the King James in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is an interpretive translation.
For man is born naturally spiritually dead - having only soul and body.

The Greek word some chose to be rendered as 'natural man' is the word psuchikos

There were several Greek gods who lost their immortality. How is it possible for people to imagine immortal gods losing their immortality, if the word means what you insist it means?
God in in Psalm 82:6-7 warns the council of the gods that they will die like men because of their unfaithful service as guardians over the nations..

That's bending it a bit....

6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. '
7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance..

Little gods. Not big God.

Men with delegated power and authority over other men to run their lives. Otherwise known today as "elitists."

But God said that they are going to die like a common man of low standing.

It had nothing to do with immortality.
Calling them 'gods' had to do with their positions and power over other men.


Come on. You should know better.

 

[Genez]

"You may eat from every tree of the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.". The tree of life was in the garden.

Your claims are mere assertions. there is no logic behind them.

I have been studying your claim.
I see a way to make it possibly work.

But first must verify your exegesis with someone who does exegete the Hebrew.

 

[Magenta]

I am suggesting that it is possible that Adam and Eve were eating already from the
tree of life, and that occasionally eating from it was necessary to keep on living.

No indication of this in Scripture. None. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Not even a hint.

What Scripture does say is that they will live forever after if they eat from the Tree of Life.

 

[maxamir]

And yet we still sin daily and seek forgiveness for it.

only those who are in Christ do so and are granted assurance to know their sin has been forgiven.

 

[maxamir]

Context. The works Paul is speaking of here are works of the Law. There is a work to which God calls all of us.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

the faith that God grants to His people is a gift of grace but those who look to their faith to be saved rather than the grace which grants that faith do so as a work in which they can boast and therefore prove that their faith is not from God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You are confusing 'soul life' for spiritual life.

All mystics have a supernatural 'soul life.'

To have a 'spiritual life' God needs to regenerate the soul to having a human spirit, so that person can know truths of God.

Many who think they are spiritual, are actually soulish, with a strong connection to the cosmic powers of the Devil's world.

The "natural man' as translated in the King James in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is an interpretive translation.
For man is born naturally spiritually dead - having only soul and body.

The Greek word some chose to be rendered as 'natural man' is the word psuchikos


That's bending it a bit....

6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High. '
7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance..

Little gods. Not big God.

Men with delegated power and authority over other men to run their lives. Otherwise known today as "elitists."

But God said that they are going to die like a common man of low standing.

It had nothing to do with immortality.
Calling them 'gods' had to do with their positions and power over other men.


Come on. You should know better.

yeah you know more than me about all theese spiritualists

But the way I look at it is what the bible says, where as the way you look at it is what some spiritualists says.

Anyhow stroll on 🙂

 

[maxamir]

Someone saying in the old testament times that no one keeps on seeking (present continuous tense) God does not mean that no one was seeking God at that time in Old Testament times. And it certainly does not mean that no one can at any time ever seek God in New or Old testament times..
John saying "Light has come (present perfect indicative active) into the world and men loved (aorist indicative active) the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil" does not mean that ALL men loved the darkness rather than the light all the time.
Jeremiah saying "man's heart is deceitful ('aQoB = deceitful, crooked) above all things and desperately wicked ('ANeS" = very sick) does not mean it is incapable of any good.
God saying that "every thought and imagination of a man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day (KoL YoM) " does not mean that "every thought and imagination of every man's heart at a certain time in history was only evil every day."
When Jesus says it is hard for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God, he is not saying it is impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God."
When Jesus says it is impossible for a man to be saved with only the help of other men, he is not saying it is impossible for men to be saved with the help of God.
When Jesus says a man being saved is impossible with men (i.e. with men helping him), but it is possible with God (i.e. with God helping him), he is not saying the man himself does not participate in any way with God and contribute in any way towards his own salvation.

Your proof texts do not say what you want them to affirm.

and you do not yet see yourself as God sees you, for you seem to still compare yourself to others and somehow think that you have some kind of goodness in you that can choose God whenever you want which proves that you are still judicially blinded by God and will only ever see unless He humbles you for God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.

I pray that the Lord gives you absolutely no peace until you are brought to see that all of your supposed righteous deeds are only filthy rags before a thrice holy God and sincerely hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life such as Job experienced to make you see who you really are.

Isa_64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Job_40:4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

 

[maxamir]

It is true that God chooses me first BUT, I have the choice to receive Jesus Christ or reject Jesus Christ.

I MUST also choose God.

Indeed, God commands you to repent and believe but if you look to your repentance, faith and choice as being the reason why you are saved instead of the grace of God which grants you such ability then you are not yet saved no matter how holy you may claim to be, because God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.

 

[maxamir]

Who did God give up to uncleanness? Who did God give up to vile passions?

Those who knew God but stopped glorifying Him as God and were unthankful.
Those who exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and to birds and four-footed beasts and creeping things.
Those who exchanged the truth of God for a lie.
These don't sound like babies just conceived in the womb or babies who are just born, or two year old babies. Those texts don't prove original sin or total depravity in humans from conception..

you foolishly think that sin is simply something that a person does but the reason why a person sins is because they are born sinners under God's just curse and slaves to it. If you don't believe that, then I challenge you to try to stop sinning.

 

[Genez]

No. I am suggesting that it is possible that Adam and Eve were eating already from the tree of life, and that occasionally eating from it was necessary to keep on living. Revelation 22:1-2 says we will have continual access to the tree of Life in the new creation.

I am working in agreement with what you presented from the Hebrew.


Yet... The Tree of Life was not necessary to "keep on living."

But... The Tree of Life was necessary not to age and then die. "Forever Young food..."

We also know they were told to eat freely from any of the regular trees for food.
That near perfect food did a great job in supporting life, as revealed when Adam lived to be over 900 years old.
Not to mention, Adam was only eating from regular trees after being kicked out of the Garden.

Methuselah was 969 years on regular food.... Genesis (5:27) The food was organic excellency.

Many of the early believers lived to be hundreds of years old eating the regular food.

The Tree of life was to keep one forever young as long as they would eat from it.
They would never age, nor die, as long as they could enjoy fruit from the Tree of Life!

But, once separated from the Tree of Life?
Man began to age ... and to eventually die.

That's what I can make of it according to what you shared from the Hebrew.

grace and peace .................

 

[sawdust]

the faith that God grants to His people is a gift of grace but those who look to their faith to be saved rather than the grace which grants that faith do so as a work in which they can boast and therefore prove that their faith is not from God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Yes, faith is a gift from God, it comes from the word. (Rom.10:17) Our believing or unbelieving, ie agreeing or disagreeing with the truth is not a gift, it is an inherent ability as part of God's design for humanity, it is called volition. (Obviously the act of creation itself is a gift but I think you can understand I am distinguishing here between a gift without merit and a gift that is needed for existence)

We are saved by grace, God's power to effect His will on the basis of who and what He is, through faith, the working of the word within a believer, specifically the word of the Gospel.