Predestination is misunderstood...
- Thread starter Genez
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Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.
Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.
Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
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Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.
Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
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I merely connected the dots, and found the contradiction in what you stated about faith. One the one hand you claim the faith is not a work, and I agree with that because the bibles teaches that faith is a gift from God. so you can't claim you employed your faith in order to obey the gospel message and be saved.
If Gods word is to be believed, then you never had faith but it was gifted to you without you asking for it to later use, to effect your salvation. The bible says that salvation is of the Lord, and not by anything man does lest he boast.
If you haven't freely received salvation, without adding any of your own faith or will or any other kind of effort than it was received freely and you have something to boast about.
If Gods word is to be believed, then you never had faith but it was gifted to you without you asking for it to later use, to effect your salvation. The bible says that salvation is of the Lord, and not by anything man does lest he boast.
If you haven't freely received salvation, without adding any of your own faith or will or any other kind of effort than it was received freely and you have something to boast about.
warning for believers
1 Corinthians 10:1-15
New International Version
Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
1 Corinthians 10:1-15
New International Version
Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
I can't make any sense of this, you say we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons and all this applies to unbelievers. So now unbelievers are the predestined to be the Holy sons of God. This is beggars belief, it's not found anywhere in the bible.
My bible tells me that those predestined elect holy sons of God, are given everything required for salvation as a gift. god freely draws them to Himself, then He freely regenerates, them, then He freely gives them the gift of faith/belief, then he gives them the gift of repentance, the He gives them the free gift of sanctification, then He gives them the free gift of perseverance, then He gives them the free gift of salvation, then He gives them the free gift of transformation into the image of His Son.
You need to show me, which stage of the process of salvations wasn't predestined before the world began, and why those names in Gods book of life were written before the foundation of the world.
Which part of salvation does man chose or wok to bring about, you can't simplify it and say "I'm saved, because I choose to believe", the choice was never yours and neither was any other part of the work of salvation. It is all of God and nothing of man so we can boast about how smart we are and deny God His glory.
My bible tells me that those predestined elect holy sons of God, are given everything required for salvation as a gift. god freely draws them to Himself, then He freely regenerates, them, then He freely gives them the gift of faith/belief, then he gives them the gift of repentance, the He gives them the free gift of sanctification, then He gives them the free gift of perseverance, then He gives them the free gift of salvation, then He gives them the free gift of transformation into the image of His Son.
You need to show me, which stage of the process of salvations wasn't predestined before the world began, and why those names in Gods book of life were written before the foundation of the world.
Which part of salvation does man chose or wok to bring about, you can't simplify it and say "I'm saved, because I choose to believe", the choice was never yours and neither was any other part of the work of salvation. It is all of God and nothing of man so we can boast about how smart we are and deny God His glory.
Agree.
If we're talking about the tax collector in Luke 18:13, I think the implication is that by acknowledging his sin, and asking forgiveness of the one true God, he was engaging in an act of submission to God.
Genuine repentance is inherently an act of submission.
HOWEVER, I don't think this passage has anything to do with a Calvinism debate.
It simply fails to clearly support either side.
Either side can claim the passage supports their view, and there is just nothing in the passage to show us what caused his repentance.... it doesn't address this issue.
I can't see that it's a relevant passage for a debate on Calvinism.... for either side.
Either side can say he repented "due to this or that"... but it simply isn't in the text.
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If we're talking about the tax collector in Luke 18:13, I think the implication is that by acknowledging his sin, and asking forgiveness of the one true God, he was engaging in an act of submission to God.
Genuine repentance is inherently an act of submission.
HOWEVER, I don't think this passage has anything to do with a Calvinism debate.
It simply fails to clearly support either side.
Either side can claim the passage supports their view, and there is just nothing in the passage to show us what caused his repentance.... it doesn't address this issue.
I can't see that it's a relevant passage for a debate on Calvinism.... for either side.
Either side can say he repented "due to this or that"... but it simply isn't in the text.
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