Predestination is misunderstood...

[sawdust]

Humans were dead by day 3 to 5 of the torrential rain but Noah was still in it for 40 days and nights.

He was in the ark, not the rain and unless you think his workmanship and God's plan are faulty, I'm not sure why you think Noah was facing God's judgment? He was safe and secure by being placed out of harms way inside the ark.

Jesus promised to return and collect us and take us to where He is. The Resurrection of the Church (rapture) looks nothing like the Second Coming. I really don't understand why people confuse them.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

He was in the ark, not the rain and unless you think his workmanship and God's plan are faulty, I'm not sure why you think Noah was facing God's judgment? He was safe and secure by being placed out of harms way inside the ark.

Jesus promised to return and collect us and take us to where He is. The Resurrection of the Church (rapture) looks nothing like the Second Coming. I really don't understand why people confuse them.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

He went through the storm. That's fact and God saved him through the storm. But he went through it.

There's no mention of Church in Revelation only the 7 John has to fix in first 3 chapters. From verse 4 it's about the Future Events to come.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Chapter 4* ^ onward

 

[Genez]

Not disagreeing but one cannot just toss out all the other teaches on this verse. If one is saying "what that verse really means".. sure ok.. see ya. I can't just toss out all those other scholars just because I disagree.

But you are disagreeing.....
And, for wrong reasons.

Good scholars. Those whom God has his hand upon, will not contradict the Word of God.
They may see a different angle to the same truth that another scholar had not.
But, one can not say there is a Rapture promised, and another tell us that there will be no Rapture,
and both be walking before God with integrity.

Keep in mind. Satan was very convincing when making his appeal before the angels.
So much so? One third of the angels sided with him in preference to the Truth!

And, when it comes for us choosing what to believe?
We are being displayed before angels. We become a reenactment for the angels to see themselves in.

Deception in itself for the one wanting it, is odorless, tasteless, and invisible before one who is to reap what he sows.
He simply wants what the deception promises because of what it came packaged with.
Packaged with someone you identify with subjectively and with self approval. = self righteousness.

As we mature we must learn enough sound doctrine to become aware and able to reject our own self righteousness.
Learning to reject a way of seeing things that we simply assume must be right.

​

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny ​

themselves and take up their cross and follow me." Matthew 16:24​

Denominations and sects erect walls of where they refuse to deny themselves. They choose to buddy up and follow each other in their agreement with what sits right with their own natural way of seeing things...

Satan is a genius in picking up on those traits and will exploit them to keep believers divided.

God says to that? Fine!
Believer's thoughts and intents of the heart are being brought out, so each one of us can be evaluated and rewarded accordingly. Justly.

grace and peace ..............

 

[Genez]

He went through the storm. That's fact and God saved him through the storm. But he went through it.

There's no mention of Church in Revelation only the 7 John has to fix in first 3 chapters. From verse 4 it's about the Future Events to come.

I guess all those other people who rented row boats were in the same way?

Noah went through a storm but was not harmed by what the storm was producing on the earth.
Noah was lifted above the earth by means of God's provision that those who perished were denied.

Why are you playing this baiting game?

You enjoy toying with others?
Like a cat that plays with its catch?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I guess all those other people who rented row boats were in the same way?

Noah went through a storm but was not harmed by what the storm was producing on the earth.
Noah was lifted above the earth by means of God's provision that those who perished were denied.

Why are you playing this baiting game?

You enjoy toying with others?
Like a cat that plays with its catch?

The Ark is God and took Noah through the storm.

Funny how people today think God is incapable of taking them through the storm.

I guess they serve a different God than I do.

 

[maxamir]

No need to mention. Absolutely true on both counts.



The whole counsel of God re: the full scope of the Gospel = the full counsel of God? Yes, even the basics have become oversimplified so as to become distorted IMO. If the foundation is not set in place correctly, there is no solid structure thereafter. I came to the point in many face-to-face discussions where I found it necessary to be checking foundations. What I would find surprised me at first. Many knew the favorite mantras of their respective denominations, which was sufficient in their minds. Few even knew that "Christ" is a title and has meaning that needs to be understood. There was a lot of professed belief, going to certain popular & big churches, and live like unbelievers. It wasn't good to be around.

very few today who say they know Christ know that He is the LORD (Sovereign Ruler) JESUS (God Who Saves) CHRIST (Anointed Prophet , Priest and King of His people).

 

[maxamir]

Thanks again. Maybe it's time for me to focus on eschatology. We'll see. I have not settled into a camp and have been watching and reading them instead. I'm admittedly less read in Amil and really not focused on anyone (like AV) in particular.

I did look in on AV awhile back and De Mar was doing a 25-session series with Kim Burgess which he turned into a book. Burgess in one respect is working to try to settle some of the disputes in Preterism. It was an interesting study more in the line of a Biblical Theology and close focus on some of the language of the NC to grasp the actual flow of what was taking place in the AD30-70 period when the NC was being written. It's the first of 2 parts and hits on several issues, one being the role of the Spirit, which has some correlation to the last part of the article you sent. I appreciated the lack of the normal focus and wrangling over the major eschatological sections of Scripture.

as long as you put Him first in all things, He will guide you into all truth.

 

[maxamir]

Unlike your experience in part, while steeped in Premil I'd seen enough and learned enough to ask not to be called a Dispensationalist. With so many variations in all the themes, I did not like the labels. Once a label is applied others think they know everything we think.

The thing about Theonomy that intrigued me was the question it was based upon, By What Standard? I didn't focus on the Postmil goal for the world. I focused on there being a Standard that fractured, denominational Christianity might attain to. Law has been and still is a big problem for Christians. It remains an interest of mine and has been one of the topics of focus that pushed eschatology back.

Your paragraph above re: our duty in proclaiming the Gospel would require much more discussion for me. As you mentioned before re: teaching the whole counsel of God, the Gospel in its full scope is a big topic encompassing the entire NC let alone the rest of Scripture. And when we get into what being holy and separate means and includes, we inevitably deal with Law and many other topics. I've not seen the necessity of taking this instruction into the finality of eschatological matters. I found the scope of the Gospel getting people (including myself) properly founded, growing to maturity, then proceeding from maturity into being more and more conformed to Christ to be enough of a challenge. IMO if all Christians were doing this, however our Lord would use this in the world would be up to Him. Arriving at His Judgement seat and receiving a "Well Done!" would seem a life well lived. Such a life would have the effects on the world that I think He desires.

I think this aligns with your last paragraph. Evidence of His Kingdom in the world is His People, holy as you say, separate or distinct as you say, conformed to His Righteousness, thus saved from sin to whatever experiential degree stemming from their position in Him and union with Him - in Spirit.

Thanks for the discussion.

I would call myself a New Covenant believer with the understanding that all things in the Old were pointing to Christ including the Mosaic law given to the nation of Israel which was fulfilled, expounded and expanded in Christ in His Gospel to go forth to all nations and it is only while looking through the lens of fulfilment of the New that the Old is made clear.

The word law in its proper sense means the revealed Word of God which is Christ and all Christian's obey His law out of gratitude and not merit.

 

[Genez]

The Ark is God and took Noah through the storm.

Funny how people today think God is incapable of taking them through the storm.

I guess they serve a different God than I do.

Noah was in a literal Ark which took him 120 years to build.

It may be used represent God in the storms of our life... when God is destroying our enemies, perhaps.

 

[Genez]

The Ark is God and took Noah through the storm.

Funny how people today think God is incapable of taking them through the storm.

I guess they serve a different God than I do.

Storms do not kill millions of people. Floods do that.

Its floods that we need most to careful about..

Storms can be a very pleasant experience when you are indoors and enjoying a nice cup of cocoa....
We can experience the storms in our life in a similar way if we mature in Christ and his grace blessings
are resting upon us... Like Paul boasted about his weaknesses, weaknesses so God's power could rest upon him.

2 Corinthians 12:9​

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But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. ​

​

​

........​

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Storms do not kill millions of people. Floods do that.

Its floods that we need most to careful about..

Storms can be a very pleasant experience when you are indoors and enjoying a nice cup of cocoa....
We can experience the storms in our like in a similar way if we mature in Christ and his grace blessings
are resting upon us... Like Paul boasted about his weaknesses, weaknesses so God's power could rest upon him.

The flood was caused by the storm which God made Noah go through. And those same floods create torrential currents and swells that in many times sink boats.

 

[Genez]

The flood was caused by the storm which God made Noah go through. And those same floods create torrential currents and swells that in many times sink boats.

After everyone was on board the ark was perfectly sealed by God from the outside (Gen 7:16).

It could not sink.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

After everyone was on board the ark was perfectly sealed by God from the outside (Gen 7:16).

It could not sink.

Proof that you can go through such tribulation safe and sound.

 

[sawdust]

He went through the storm. That's fact and God saved him through the storm. But he went through it.

There's no mention of Church in Revelation only the 7 John has to fix in first 3 chapters. From verse 4 it's about the Future Events to come.

I agree. I see no Church in Revelation apart from the letters or during the Great Tribulation so why are you arguing against God removing the Church from the place of judgement (ie. Earth)?

 

[Genez]

I agree. I see no Church in Revelation apart from the letters or during the Great Tribulation so why are you arguing against God removing the Church from the place of judgement (ie. Earth)?

That is when we begin to see a return to the age of the Jews, with Jews in the forefront with the 144,000 young Jewish evangelists.
They will go through the Tribulation. And, those who endure to the end (of the Tribulation) will be delivered/saved to be entered into the Millennium kingdom on earth.

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And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. ​

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the ​

kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, ​

and then the end will come." Mat 24:12-14​

In Matthew 24:12-14 Jesus was teaching Jewish disciples. Teaching as a rabbi would.
Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom (not gospel of Christ) will be preached in all the world.
That kingdom will be the Millennium!

That was not the church Jesus was speaking about. He was teaching of the return and ending of the Jewish age, that will climax as the Tribulation comes to its end. Those alive during that time who endure to the end of the Tribulation will be saved! It had nothing to do with any Christian having to endure something to be saved.

So much confusion. So little wisdom.

grace and peace ......

 

[Mem]

Eight people were preserved through the flood in the ark in the days and we know that account is literally as it happened but the account of the end is told to us in figurative language because although it will be "like in the days of Noah" this the deluge will come in the form of fire and the message is given in a picture of the harvest of a field, which is the earth, where both the wheat and the tares grow alongside the other, and a barn (which is where the wheat will be gathered into). However, it seems to me to be far removed to consider the figurative barn is not located within the same figurative field as the figurative harvest has been growing in.

 

[studier]

as long as you put Him first in all things, He will guide you into all truth.

Generally speaking, I don't see the error being not putting Him first. I don't see all disagreements in Theology being a lack in allegiance to Jesus Christ. Things were hard to understand in the first century and some things remain hard to understand. There is certainly something wrong, but I think we're hard-pressed to be saying that everyone who disagrees with us lacks allegiance to Christ or does not have the Spirit, or is some agent for the adversary.

This doesn't mean I think everything goes, which is why I mentioned checking foundations first. Paul for instance levied his harshest attack towards those who would seek to destroy one's foundation and pull them from Christ and Grace and the new era in Christ.

So, I'm not a pacifist at the end of all of this, but, in truth, I've become more settled in my faith. No matter what I know or don't know, I know Him - I understand who He is, I believe in Him and understand that Biblical Faith apart from submission is nonsense, I understand what He's done for us, and what He's doing for us as He takes us individually and corporately to a telos for all His Creation, and in faith I am submitted to Him and His plan and process. His Father is my Father and He - Jesus YHWH's Christ - is my firstborn brother and Lord and everything His Word says He is.

Men are still crazy. Entering into Christ and having His Spirit doesn't make men uncrazy in an instant - maybe for an instant - but then the process begins. It takes a lot of time and a lot of focused work to make us more and more uncrazy. There's a lot of crazy on these forums and a lot of denominational antagonism. If I were an unbeliever reading this I'd see little value in Christianity. Honestly, I've come to see little to no value in what some to many men think Christianity is.

In some ways, we're not going to completely know Him and who we are in Him until we see Him as He is. So we or I at least just keep moving forward and growing in His grace and knowledge until our individual telos or until He brings it all to its telos. Part of the task is to rest in Him while collaborating with Him at His pace for us rather than ours. It's a blend of a tension in His Word of striving and giving it our all while resting in Him. There are a lot of such tensions in the Text. Epignosis is a practical knowledge, and experiential knowledge and we may think we know things but we really don't until we do. There's Life and then Abundant Life and there is a difference between the two.

 

[studier]

very few today who say they know Christ know that He is the LORD (Sovereign Ruler) JESUS (God Who Saves) CHRIST (Anointed Prophet , Priest and King of His people).

He's also Christ and King of kings which the foundational Psalm 2 makes clear. And then we can begin dealing with the rest of who He is and that Biblical Faith in Him is more than a 1Cor15 gospel (which I'm not saying to open up that debate).

 

[studier]

I would call myself a New Covenant believer with the understanding that all things in the Old were pointing to Christ including the Mosaic law given to the nation of Israel which was fulfilled, expounded and expanded in Christ in His Gospel to go forth to all nations and it is only while looking through the lens of fulfilment of the New that the Old is made clear.

The word law in its proper sense means the revealed Word of God which is Christ and all Christian's obey His law out of gratitude and not merit.

View attachment 263831

Thanks for this!

Nicely stated. As far as we've gotten to so far, we look to be aligned to a fair degree.

What's "PTS 2016" (bottom right corner)? Where did this come from?

This graphic looks to be well stated. I haven't gone through the referenced Scriptures yet. It seems to be one of the best overviews of the Law of Christ I've seen, which Law has to be a summation of the whole, rather than just a distinct separation from all that has gone before. It seems to properly take into account references like 2Tim3:16-17, which I see referenced but I'd add 3:15 to make certain we get the "wise for salvation" statement, and 1Tim1:8, which I don't see referenced, but is likely interpreted to be in the entirety of what's stated. If more of us could grasp this maybe we'd have less disagreement and more understanding of how to use OC Law properly under Grace in the NC era with the Law of its Mediator, Great High Priest, etc...

I jumped into reading and listening to some NCT actually in following up on something recommended on a forum. I had been mostly separated from outside input for many years and just focused on the Word in Spirit. I was a bit surprised that some or many of NCT conclusions were similar to or the same as some I had come to in my own studies away from all the noise and interpretations.

What do you read or who do you hear re: NCT? What I've read and listened to I'm not in full agreement with, but my agreement has been surprisingly higher than I thought it could be. I've communicated with one man in England who found his way into agreement with it to whatever degree he would say he has.