Predestination is misunderstood...

[Cameron143]

Being distraught is when God is not speaking to you, it is called long suffering.

I have been there when my pride had yet to be stomped on by God.

God did not speak to me for months

Same thing happened with Saul.

But your saying Saul was a natural man.

Are you saying God the father would let his holy spirit change Saul just to be a natural man to lead his people.

Remember his sin was he let compassion rule his thoughts, instead of obeying Gods commands

Long suffering is another word for patience.

God spoke to Cain. Was he saved?
God spoke through a donkey. Was the donkey saved?

The reason I asked about fruit is because fruit is only produced by God. Saul was not known for his patience.

There are times in the lives of Christians where God appears to leave us. And there are various reasons given in scripture for God doing so. But He doesn't actually ever leave us or forsake us.

We aren't going to come to agreement on this. And that's ok. I've been blessed by our discourse. Thanks.

Grace and peace.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not wise to use the oxford dictionary, like the interpretation has done in the amplified version, its best to use Gods character. And where grace has been spoken.

Here's one, if your willing, i can show you more, but it's not my doctrine it's God's.


Philippians 2:13

New International Version



13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

God proved his character when he came to earth, And suffered the death of the cross. For all mankind.

I do not need any dictionary to know this/

Once again, Grace means favor that is what the word means (charis) and it is freely given, it cannot be earned,,

Its either grace ir it is works. It can nto be both

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It does say our plans are subject to His will. We do not have unfettered free will.
Can you choose to be another race?
Can you choose to be born?
What is your favorite color? Did you choose it independently of how God created you?
Can you throw a football a hundred yards?
Can you speak and things that were not now are?
There are literally millions of things you cannot do regardless of your free will.

I have no idea what you are arguing against.

Job has unfettered free will. However, God did put road blocks in his way. To get him to chose to do what god wanted.

God did not force Jonah to do anything, Jonah could have chose to die in the great fish instead of repenting.

aas for our physical stuff.. Sorry but, it does not prove your point..

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

God proved his character when he came to earth, And suffered the death of the cross. For all mankind.

I do not need any dictionary to know this/

Once again, Grace means favor that is what the word means (charis) and it is freely given, it cannot be earned,,

Its either grace ir it is works. It can nto be both

You do need the whole bible, sentences like we are saved by Grace needs to be defined,

You just can not assume Grace means ones thing only.

 

[Cameron143]

I have no idea what you are arguing against.

Job has unfettered free will. However, God did put road blocks in his way. To get him to chose to do what god wanted.

God did not force Jonah to do anything, Jonah could have chose to die in the great fish instead of repenting.

aas for our physical stuff.. Sorry but, it does not prove your point..

We're definitely talking apples and oranges. But thanks for the discussion.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You do need the whole bible, sentences like we are saved by Grace needs to be defined,

You just can not assume Grace means ones thing only.

All I need is to know that grace is the apposite of works.

If your tdying to earn a reward, or. Wage, it is not of grace

if you can not earn it, but are given it freely, it is grace.

if your trying to add works to grace as a means to be saved, You will not be happy at the outcome

we all deserve to be in hell today. it is but for the grace of God we are living here on earth with the freedom to chose to recieve God or reject him

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Long suffering is another word for patience.

God spoke to Cain. Was he saved?
God spoke through a donkey. Was the donkey saved?

The reason I asked about fruit is because fruit is only produced by God. Saul was not known for his patience.

There are times in the lives of Christians where God appears to leave us. And there are various reasons given in scripture for God doing so. But He doesn't actually ever leave us or forsake us.

We aren't going to come to agreement on this. And that's ok. I've been blessed by our discourse. Thanks.

Grace and peace.

Totally different circumstances.

You asked for fruit that was in Saul, I showed you long suffering and compassion, there was also willingness from him to want to speak to God again..

Your comparison is to use some one who killed someone in anger, with someone who disobeyed through compassion.

That's hardly appropriate,

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

All I need is to know that grace is the apposite of works.

If your tdying to earn a reward, or. Wage, it is not of grace

if you can not earn it, but are given it freely, it is grace.

if your trying to add works to grace as a means to be saved, You will not be happy at the outcome

we all deserve to be in hell today. it is but for the grace of God we are living here on earth with the freedom to chose to recieve God or reject him

By God's good will ( grace) which is his works. You where saved to do good works.

 

[Cameron143]

Totally different circumstances.

You asked for fruit that was in Saul, I showed you long suffering and compassion, there was also willingness from him to want to speak to God again..

Your comparison is to use some one who killed someone in anger, with someone who disobeyed through compassion.

That's hardly appropriate,

Didn't Saul try to kill David with a spear? What was in his heart?
And no one disobeys from compassion. He disobeyed because he coveted the rewards and didn't think rules applied to him. Disobedience always reflects a problem in the heart.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eph 2: And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Col 2: 12 - buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Himthrough faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

I grasp the general point you are making...

... I believe it is Col2:13 and Eph2:5 which are both saying the same thing (about the believer):


--Eph2:5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with [συνεζωοποίησεν - synezōopoiēsen - G4806 ] Christ [*when* He was], (by grace ye are [present tense] [having been] saved [perfect participle] ; "

[note: Christ did not need to be made alive "spiritually"... yet we were "quickened-together-with" Him]
- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/eph/2/5/t_concif_1099005 ;


--Col2:13 - "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with [συνεζωποίησεν - synezōpoiēsen - G4806 ] him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/col/2/13/t_concif_1109013




[so this is speaking of something slightly distinct from what Eph2:1[-3] was speaking of specifically... ]

I was ressurected to life.

Reminds me somewhat of John 5:25 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."


and... 1 John 5:12 - "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."


...etc...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

By God's good will ( grace) which is his works. You where saved to do good works.

yes

But if you have not been saved, You can do ll the god works you want. You will still go to hell

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I grasp the general point you are making...

... I believe it is Col2:13 and Eph2:5 which are both saying the same thing (about the believer):


--Eph2:5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with [συνεζωοποίησεν - synezōopoiēsen - G4806 ]

Christ [*when* He was], (by grace ye are [present tense] [having been] saved [perfect participle] ; "
[note: Christ did not need to be made alive "spiritually"... yet we were "quickened-together-with" Him] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/eph/2/5/t_concif_1099005 ;


--Col2:13 - "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with [συνεζωποίησεν - synezōpoiēsen - G4806 ] him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/col/2/13/t_concif_1109013



[so this is speaking of something slightly distinct from what Eph2:1[-3] was speaking of specifically... ]



Reminds me somewhat of John 5:25 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."


and... 1 John 5:12 - "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."


...etc...

We are made alive (quickened) because the thing that made us dead was removed.

If it is not removed, we are still dead in our sin.

The tax collector was dead in sin when he got on his knees and called out for Gods mercy

He went him not only justified, but alive

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Didn't Saul try to kill David with a spear? What was in his heart?
And no one disobeys from compassion. He disobeyed because he coveted the rewards and didn't think rules applied to him. Disobedience always reflects a problem in the heart.

same thing that happens to you if someone was to steal your wife, you would get jealous.

Did he kill him, no, because He listened to reason another fruit.

Your trying to prove someone is not saved By them sining, this is wrong buddy.

Besides this your also confusing being saved with salvation.

Mostly all of the old t saints did not receive salvation until Jesus resurrected them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

To go along with my post:

"He that hath the Son hath life

"He that hath the Son hath life" (this is not prior to believing on Him)





BTW, @Everlasting-Grace , I'm basically AGREEING with you.

Eph2:5 and Col2:13 ("quickened-together-with [Him / Christ]") are what happened to the BELIEVER (not prior to believing)

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

yes

But if you have not been saved, You can do ll the god works you want. You will still go to hell

that's being evasive to what Grace actually devines buddy.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"He that hath the Son hath life" (this is not prior to believing on Him)

Yes it is

You cannot recieve the son until you are forgiven, God can not enter a body that is under the penalty of sin.

But as many as have recieved him.. To them he gave the right to become children of God..

You must recieve him, He is not going to enter you against your will or force himself on you

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

that's being evasive to what Grace actually devines buddy.

its just the fact.

You can not earn salvation by your works. it is the gift of God.

if your trying to work to earn salvation or keep it. You are rejecting grace period

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

its just the fact.

You can not earn salvation by your works. it is the gift of God.

if your trying to work to earn salvation or keep it. You are rejecting grace period

this is another one of your period statements,

You can't put God in a box like this to argue your stance buddy

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"He that hath the Son hath life" (this is not prior to believing on Him)

Yes it is

"yes it is" what?




As a reminder, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist.

So I am NOT arguing the "Calvinist" viewpoint.

You cannot recieve the son until you are forgiven, God can not enter a body that is under the penalty of sin.

But as many as have recieved him.. To them he gave the right to become children of God..

You must recieve him, He is not going to enter you against your will or force himself on you

Okay. But I was NOT arguing such a point (or, against such ^ ), NO.





My point was simply to POINT OUT TO THOSE READING this thread (you as well), the actual verses which prove your basic point (Eph2:5 [v.1 doesn't] = Col2:13 [not v.12]... <--the verses in the brackets being the ones you had supplied.)

I'm simply pointing out the verses, instead, that DO speak to what your point had basically been. To which, I AGREE.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

this is another one of your period statements,

You can't put God in a box like this to argue your stance buddy

I am not putting God in a box.

See your like most legalists. You can’t get the focus off yourself and what you do.

Those of us saved by grace focus on others. And serving them. We do not need to worry about works or if someone is doing them, if someone trust god. They will work.. Its not that they might work.

Get your focus off self and put it on God owuld be my recommendation to you.

And a better attitude would do you well.