Predestination or free wiil.

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J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#301
Feb 6, 2014
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#301
Lillywolf said:
Interesting to bring up the serpent Moses held aloft, and that serves as the caduceus in American medical today, as a healing idol or symbol. When due to a serpent the first people fell into a state of disgrace.
But back to the topic at hand.

Ephesians 1:4-13 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit[/FONTb]
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Before the foundation of the world God decide to elect whosoever believe in His Son Jesus
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#302
Feb 6, 2014
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#302
Jackson123 said:



Before the foundation of the world God decide to elect whosoever believe in His Son Jesus
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This is the document of His (God) decision

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#304
Feb 6, 2014
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#304
trofimus said:
"You do not believe, because you are not of my sheep".
J 10:26

Not:
"You are not my sheep, because you do not believe".
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And who is His sheep?


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#305
Aug 17, 2015
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#305
Jackson123 said:
And who is His sheep?


John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Yes, his sheep believe in him, because they are his sheep and God gave them the gift of believing.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#307
Aug 17, 2015
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#307
Jackson123 said:
Can you show me a verse that explain give of believing?
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"No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65

"...think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you."
R 12:3

"For it has been granted to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer concerning Him"
Php 1:29
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#308
Feb 6, 2014
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#308
trofimus said:
"No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6:65

"...think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you."
R 12:3

"For it has been granted to you concerning Christ, not only to believe in Him but also to suffer concerning Him"
Php 1:29
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John 6:65 King James Version (KJV)

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

King James Version (KJV)


We need to investigate what kind of person is elect by Father

Back to John 3:16
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#309
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#309
Jackson123 said:
John 6:65 King James Version (KJV)

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

King James Version (KJV)


We need to investigate what kind of person is elect by Father

Back to John 3:16
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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It seems to me that J 3:16 is some kind of "all taking card" for you. Do you even understand it? The context is that we must be born from above to have the faith.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
#310
Feb 6, 2014
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#310
trofimus said:
It seems to me that J 3:16 is some kind of "all taking card" for you. Do you even understand it? The context is that we must be born from above to have the faith.
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John 3:16 is the word of God

It say, whosoever believe Will be save. I believe that verse not contradict other verse, so one verse enough.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#311
Aug 17, 2015
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#311
Jackson123 said:
John 3:16 is the word of God

It say, whosoever believe Will be save. I believe that verse not contradict other verse, so one verse enough.
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This verse does not contradict predestination, calvinism or that the faith is a gift from God.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#312
Jan 13, 2016
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#312
trofimus said:
This verse does not contradict predestination, calvinism or that the faith is a gift from God.
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Predestination has nothing to do with salvation. Those who put their faith in Christ become predestined for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. I love the doctrine of predestination. It declares my future hope of glory now that I'm in Christ.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#313
Aug 17, 2015
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#313
John146 said:
Predestination has nothing to do with salvation. Those who put their faith in Christ become predestined for the future adoption which is the redemption of the body. I love the doctrine of predestination. It declares my future hope of glory now that I'm in Christ.
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Putting the faith in Christ is not a random act, its based on something.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#314
Jan 13, 2016
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#314
trofimus said:
Putting the faith in Christ is not a random act, its based on something.
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Correct, it's not random. One must first hear the gospel. Then one must trust and believe the gospel.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#315
Aug 17, 2015
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#315
John146 said:
Correct, it's not random. One must first hear the gospel. Then one must trust and believe the gospel.

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
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Two people hear the gospel, one believes and the other one not.

Why?
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#316
Sep 8, 2018
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#316
trofimus said:
Two people hear the gospel, one believes and the other one not.

Why?
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This is where the parable of the soils comes to play.

Im sure you are familiar with it. Thats the answer why one believes and one does not, it also answers why some fall away from the faith and why some stay in the faith.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#317
Jan 13, 2016
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#317
trofimus said:
Two people hear the gospel, one believes and the other one not.

Why?
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Why do some people believe in Trump and others don't. Why do some believe in democracy and some don't.

Why did most people that Jesus preached to, reject Him? It was their choice. This is why we must reach people at a young age with the gospel of Jesus Christ before their minds are corrupted by the world's way of thinking. The more corrupt their minds get, their hearts become hardened to the gospel.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#318
Aug 17, 2015
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#318
Hevosmies said:
This is where the parable of the soils comes to play.

Im sure you are familiar with it. Thats the answer why one believes and one does not, it also answers why some fall away from the faith and why some stay in the faith.
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How does one get the good soil?
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#320
Aug 17, 2015
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#320
John146 said:
Why do some people believe in Trump and others don't. Why do some believe in democracy and some don't.

Why did most people that Jesus preached to, reject Him? It was their choice. This is why we must reach people at a young age with the gospel of Jesus Christ before their minds are corrupted by the world's way of thinking. The more corrupt their minds get, their hearts become hardened to the gospel.
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In your view, faith in God is just a psychological issue.

But the Bible says otherwise, faith is the gift of God.
 
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