Predestination or free wiil.

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luigi

Junior Member
#381
Dec 6, 2015
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TheQuestion said:
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Everyone has opinion.
Jonah was NOT telling them to repent....he was proclaiming Jehovah's JUDGMENT- which CHANGED when they repented.
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Same result. Instead of telling them to repent in order to receive benefit; the Lord foretold of their imminent doom, thus causing them to repent.
Had Jonah gone in and told the Ninevite's to repent of their actions, to which they were unaware of doing wrong, they would have merely ignored Jonah at best.

Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
 
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luigi

Junior Member
#383
Dec 6, 2015
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TheQuestion said:
So, you pound 'predestination' into that scripture?
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If you are referring to the Ninevite's having predestination as children of God...; only those of the 600,000 who would continue on a path other than for their corrupt flesh, and would choose a just way in love and loving their neighbor, would I then assume had a predestination as a child of God.
 
TheQuestion

TheQuestion

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You assume WAY too much, Luiugi.
Adding and teaching something NOT THERE is a SERIOUS Mistake!
 
Scrobulous

Scrobulous

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#385
Sep 17, 2018
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#385
RDK said:
Can anyone here show me where in the Bible is the idea of free wii. Everything about scripture indicates that God knows and plans everything. It makes sense that God plans everything since He knows all.
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I would say that free will is on display everywhere in the bible. The first example is right at the front. Gen 2:17. God tells Adam not to eat from the tree and Adam can choose to obey or disobey this command. He has free will.
It is possible to get confused, because the bible sometimes speaks from man’s perspective and sometimes from God’s. Since God knows all things and is outside time, any situation can be described as one in which God controls all the events. So, in the example above, God knows, even when issuing the command, that Adam will disobey. It can be accurately said that God caused Adam to sin, by putting him in this situation and not preventing Adam from doing what he wants to do. But obviously, if God were to prevent disobedience, he would be removing free will. God does not, in general, remove free will. That’s why there is sin in the world.
But from man’s perspective, God does not control all the events. Adam had complete freedom to obey or disobey. The fact that God knew what he would do, in no way put pressure on Adam or influenced him. It was Adam’s choice.
This is why it is true to say that all christians are predestined from the creation of the world to be saints. This is God’s view. But from man’s perspective it is utterly different. Each person has an entirely sovereign choice. Destiny is in our hands. Everyone has the potential to be saved and each person must decide for themselves. We christians have to do all we can to further the purposes of God on the Earth. We are God’s ambassadors.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#386
#386
ForestGreenCook said:
The "whosoever" people and the "everyone who sees" people are restricted to only those who have been regenerated as explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5. According to 1 Cor 2:14, we, as natural men, void of the Spirit, cannot discern spiritual things. God says only his sheep hear his voice.
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In order for this to be you have to IGNORE most of this passage, which says who the “Whosoever” People are.

They are those who SEE AND BELIEVE. It is right there is black and white, why do you ignore it>

Just take scripture as written, you will not go wrong.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#387
#387
John146 said:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us (those in Christ) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, What's the adoption? See Romans 8:23...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. The adoption is the future redemption of the body that those in Christ have been predestined for. That's the hope of glory for the believer in Christ.
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Lol. Like the calvinist, who caims he is not a calvinist, you refuse to take the scripture as posted. And want to go all over the place to make your belief fit.

Just take it as written, He predestined us to be children. Predestines means predetermined. He predetermines us to adption. You adding “in christ” does not change that fact.

Rom 8: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order, predestination occured first.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#388
Jan 13, 2016
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luigi said:
Yes, the Lord knew ahead of time that Nineveh would repent and cry out to Him,...etc.
The Lord also knew that when He gave the Israelite's of the Exodus the laws to life, which if they disobeyed would then receive all the curses He described, would in that and in future generations choose the evil over the good.
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Are you saying the Lord lied when He declared that in forty days He would overthrow Nineveh? God did not lie. God simply changed His mind based upon Nineveh's response to His word.
 
TheQuestion

TheQuestion

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Scrobulous said:
This is why it is true to say that all christians are predestined from the creation of the world to be saints. This is God’s view. But from man’s perspective it is utterly different. Each person has an entirely sovereign choice. Destiny is in our hands. Everyone has the potential to be saved and each person must decide for themselves. We christians have to do all we can to further the purposes of God on the Earth. We are God’s ambassadors.
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"Saint" only means "HOLY one"- his angels are holy, His son is, His power (spirit) is holy- and WE must be.
("Holy", in biblical words, means "set aside for a pure purpose).
So all men we MEANT to be holy ('saints')- and WILL be in the New Heaven and Earth.

This is no example of 'predestination' unless the word means God's WILL.
 
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John146

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#390
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eternally-gratefull said:
Lol. Like the calvinist, who caims he is not a calvinist, you refuse to take the scripture as posted. And want to go all over the place to make your belief fit.

Just take it as written, He predestined us to be children. Predestines means predetermined. He predetermines us to adption. You adding “in christ” does not change that fact.

Rom 8: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the order, predestination occured first.
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Paul is speaking to those who are already saved telling them of their future adoption, the redemption of their bodies. That's the future hope of the believe who is in Christ. Salvation comes before God predestines anybody. We get saved. God predestines us. God calls us. God justifies us. God glorifies us.
 
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luigi

Junior Member
#391
Dec 6, 2015
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#391
John146 said:
Are you saying the Lord lied when He declared that in forty days He would overthrow Nineveh? God did not lie. God simply changed His mind based upon Nineveh's response to His word.
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The Lord did not lie. Had the Ninevite's not repented of their erroneous ways, Nineveh would then have been obliterated. They repented, and so the Lord repented of the punishment due them had they not repented.
 
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John146

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#392
Jan 13, 2016
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luigi said:
The Lord did not lie. Had the Ninevite's not repented of their erroneous ways, Nineveh would then have been obliterated. They repented, and so the Lord repented of the punishment due them had they not repented.
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Did God not say that in forty days He would overthrow them? It was a message of destruction upon Nineveh. God changed His mind and did not destroy them.
 
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luigi

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#393
Dec 6, 2015
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John146 said:
Did God not say that in forty days He would overthrow them? It was a message of destruction upon Nineveh. God changed His mind and did not destroy them.
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Yes, the Lord did say that He would overthrow them in forty days. And He did, their pernicious ways overthrow.
 
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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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luigi said:
Yes, the Lord did say that He would overthrow them in forty days. And He did, their pernicious ways overthrow.
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Actually, the Lord did not overthrow them in forty days as Scripture states.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
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luigi

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Dec 6, 2015
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John146 said:
Actually, the Lord did not overthrow them in forty days as Scripture states.

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
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Semantics? We know that the Lord was successful in having the Ninevite's repent, and so He did not have to give them their just reward of Evil for their evils.
 
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John146

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#396
Jan 13, 2016
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#396
luigi said:
Semantics? We know that the Lord was successful in having the Ninevite's repent, and so He did not have to give them their just reward of Evil for their evils.
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Semantics? Words mean everything. Bottom line, God did not do to Nineveh what He said He was going to do them. God did not lie. God simply changed His mind. David also knew God changes His mind.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

David knew God's mind could be changed through prayer.
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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#397
Sep 8, 2018
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#397
TheQuestion said:
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"Predestination" is just another term coined by false religion.
Try PROVING it!

God created evil? (Some translations SAY that)
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In your ignorance (i assume) you just called the writers of the bible as coining a term for FALSE RELIGION.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Its time to bow out gracefully at this point. What a novice mistake to believe that predestination is term coined by false religion. BIBLE TEACHES PREDESTINATION, its clear from OT and NT
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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#398
John146 said:
Semantics? Words mean everything. Bottom line, God did not do to Nineveh what He said He was going to do them. God did not lie. God simply changed His mind. David also knew God changes His mind.
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Are you an open-theist? You believe that the future is open and God does not know beforehand what we do?
 
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Lillywolf

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#399
Aug 29, 2018
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#399
John146 said:
There's a difference between wickedness and evil. There's a difference between sin and evil. Evil is destruction. Wickedness and sin can cause evil.
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Bible definition of evil
Although the Bible meaning of evil includes the idea of sinfulness or wickedness in many cases, it also has a broader meaning that is commonly used. In this broader meaning, evil refers to those things that are generally thought of as bad or undesirable; or as the dictionary says, "causing pain or trouble.".
God Creating Evil?
https://www.learnthebible.org/god-creating-evil.html
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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ForestGreenCook said:
The whosoever will, and the ones to take the water of life freely, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not be the natural man that cannot discern spiritual things. Until he has been regenerated, as explained in Eph 2:5.
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That's a good way to misapply Scripture, and twist it for the sake of your theology. 1 Cor 2:14 is NOT speaking about the Gospel, but the "the deep things of God". And being "dead in trespasses and sins" is NOT a barrier to the POWER of the Gospel (Rom 1:16) and the POWER of the Holy Spirit (Heb 3:7-9).

No sinner is regenerated BEFORE he or she believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12,13; Acts 2:38). Which means that Five Point Calvinism is a house of cards or a set of dominoes. When one falls, they all fall down (like Humpty Dumpty).
 
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