Predestination or free wiil.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Yep. And he will not just give it to you. He wishes you to desire his salvation. Thats what a loving creator does. He gives openly ad willingly. But does not force anyone to do anythign against their will
Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for the sins of those that God gave him was offered to God for his acceptance, it was not offered to man for his acceptance. Forgiveness of sins was accomplished on the cross and Jesus said "it is finished". There being no more sacrifice for sins.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
Yes. If you are talking about the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14.

Romans 10:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Before faith come to a person, that person is natural, or without Holy Spirit.

But this verse say, It is posible for natural man to have a faith in Jesus by hearing.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Romans 10:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Before faith come to a person, that person is natural, or without Holy Spirit.

But this verse say, It is posible for natural man to have a faith in Jesus by hearing.
The scriptures say. Those who have ears to hear, let him hear. The natural man does not have ears that will discern spiritual things, such as the gospel. God says, my sheep (children of God) hear my voice, and I know them. The natural man is not his child until he is regenerated as explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Romans 8
KJV
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

NIV
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

AMPC
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
The scriptures say. Those who have ears to hear, let him hear. The natural man does not have ears that will discern spiritual things, such as the gospel. God says, my sheep (children of God) hear my voice, and I know them. The natural man is not his child until he is regenerated as explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5.
So you do not believe natural man can Convert to spiritual man.

When peter preach 3000 natural man Convert how you explain?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
So you do not believe natural man can Convert to spiritual man.

When peter preach 3000 natural man Convert how you explain?
What do you think Eph 2:1-5 means? To me, it says that the natural man has nothing to do with God regenerating him, because he was "DEAD (spiritually ) in sins" when God regenerated him. He had no ability to respond to spiritual things, such as, repenting of a spiritual law that he could not discern., confess, accept,believe etc. These responses come only from the disobedient child of God, who has already been regenerated. The men that were converted were regenerated children of god. The Jews that were accused of consenting to Jesus's death were PRICKED in their heart. The natural man, who has no guilt of spiritual wrong doing, cannot be pricked in his heart. The people who stoned Steven to death were CUT to the heart and did not ask for forgiveness. So, your answer is NO, the natural man can not be converted. Conversion comes after you have been regenerated.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Romans 8
KJV
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

NIV
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

AMPC
5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
The scriptures teach that after you have been regenerated and are trying to follow God's commandments, that you do not lose your fleshly nature, but every child of God struggles with the desires of flesh and sometimes loses his battle to his fleshly desires. That is why the child of God is commanded to repent. When we give in to our fleshly desires and sin we Die to our fellowship with God until we repent. Death, according to the Greek is "a separation- literally or figuretivley". Paul talks about his struggles with his fleshly nature in Galatians.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
What do you think Eph 2:1-5 means? To me, it says that the natural man has nothing to do with God regenerating him, because he was "DEAD (spiritually ) in sins" when God regenerated him. He had no ability to respond to spiritual things, such as, repenting of a spiritual law that he could not discern., confess, accept,believe etc. These responses come only from the disobedient child of God, who has already been regenerated. The men that were converted were regenerated children of god. The Jews that were accused of consenting to Jesus's death were PRICKED in their heart. The natural man, who has no guilt of spiritual wrong doing, cannot be pricked in his heart. The people who stoned Steven to death were CUT to the heart and did not ask for forgiveness. So, your answer is NO, the natural man can not be converted. Conversion comes after you have been regenerated.

Why God ask you to preach the Gospel to natural man? You say, natural man never accept gospel.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Why God ask you to preach the Gospel to natural man? You say, natural man never accept gospel.
What scripture is it that you think tells us to teach the gospel to the natural man. We cannot determine who is the natural man and who is not the natural man. Only God's sheep hear his voice, the natural man will think that it is foolishness.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
What scripture is it that you think tells us to teach the gospel to the natural man. We cannot determine who is the natural man and who is not the natural man. Only God's sheep hear his voice, the natural man will think that it is foolishness.

Mark 16:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
What scripture is it that you think tells us to teach the gospel to the natural man. We cannot determine who is the natural man and who is not the natural man. Only God's sheep hear his voice, the natural man will think that it is foolishness.
Ever hear of the great commission?

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Mark 16:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
But, I have just told you, that the natural man cannot believe in spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for the sins of those that God gave him was offered to God for his acceptance, it was not offered to man for his acceptance. Forgiveness of sins was accomplished on the cross and Jesus said "it is finished". There being no more sacrifice for sins.
F...,
Please explain this conclusion...?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
F...,
Please explain this conclusion...?
Jesus completed what God sent him to earth as a man to accomplish and that was to be a sacrifice for the sins of those that he choose before the foundation of the world and gave to his Son. This was a sacrifice that was offered to God for man, and not a sacrifice that was offered to man. God was pleased with his Son's sacrifice. God said that his Son would not be sacrificed a second time for the sins of those that he gave to him. When Jesus was on the cross, he said "IT IS FINISHED", meaning that those that he died for, he would not lose any of them but raise all of them up at the last day. Those that he died for on the cross are the only ones that will live in heaven.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Ever hear of the great commission?

Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
We have no clue as to who the elect are, so, we preach and only the regenerated elect will respond.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,153
3,697
113
We have no clue as to who the elect are, so, we preach and only the regenerated elect will respond.
If they are elect, they will be saved if you preach to them or not...

Could you respond to my question concerning the disciples, who did not have the Holy Spirit because it had not been sent yet? How could they understand spiritual things from Jesus?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
If they are elect, they will be saved if you preach to them or not...

Could you respond to my question concerning the disciples, who did not have the Holy Spirit because it had not been sent yet? How could they understand spiritual things from Jesus?
God has not instructed us to preach to eternally save souls, Jesus accomplished that on the cross. The inspired scriptures are instructions written to his regenerated children of God, instructing them as to how he wants them to live here in this world. The preacher's obligation is to inform God's people of those instructions. As I have said before, salvation according to Greek is "a deliverance" God has informed his elect through the scriptures how that they were saved eternally by Christ's death on the cross, and how they are regenerated from being dead spiritually to being spiritually alive. His instructions for their lives here on earth is how they can be delivered from their wrong doings when they repent, confess, accept, believe etc. Where you fail to understand, is your are not rightly dividing the salvation (deliverance) scriptures, and are failing to understanding that "death" is a lot of the scriptures is referring to a spiritual separation from our good standing with God when we yield our bodies to the desires of our flesh, until we repent.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
If they are elect, they will be saved if you preach to them or not...

Could you respond to my question concerning the disciples, who did not have the Holy Spirit because it had not been sent yet? How could they understand spiritual things from Jesus?
In the old testament and the new testament up until the comforter came, Holy men of God were said to have the Holy Spirit "UPON" them.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,153
3,697
113
In the old testament and the new testament up until the comforter came, Holy men of God were said to have the Holy Spirit "UPON" them.
Can you post from the four gospels where it states that the Holy Spirit was upon the disciples? Thanks.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
But, I have just told you, that the natural man cannot believe in spiritual things, they are foolishness unto him.
You are forgetting we all start out as a natural man. So how does anyone get saved!!

Armenianism and Calvinism have opposing views on this subject!!