Predestination or free will?

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OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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O.....,

Providing the request is part of G-d's plan. He cannot answer all prayers. Otherwise no one would ever die. ..."it is appointed unto man once to die".
You are listing symbolisms of G-d's intent.
Am I? As you wish.
Blessings.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Can the thing formed say to the One who made it, why has Thou made me this way? Yes He made some to honor and others to dishonor.
Not an answer to the question.

God says in Rom 1:18-20 that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and who deny the eternal power of God are without excuse.

According to you, God formed some to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and deny the eternal power of God.

Therefore, they have an excuse.





Danny1988 said:
We are not in a position to question anything God does, we are commanded to love Him with all our hearts, mind and strength. Maybe He will reveal His reason to us one day, until then we should only trust and obey Him.
God allows mankind to reject Him.

God wants all to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth).
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,033
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We can't? If we're predestined before the creation of the world to be in him, is it our will we exercise? Or God's as intended for the individual that responds?
I heared following picture to explaine it. - A man heared the gospel and believed it and ask the Lord to forgive him and came into his life. When he then passed away he walked through the heavensgate. While he looked back he saw written on the top of the gate following words: predistinatet before the world was createt. -
I believe we have to give an response to the gospel. And I believe we predistinate before the world was createt. Be honest, for what we need to know this?
Preach the Gospel and see how the people react. Sonetimes, somebody react not positivly when he heares the Gospel the first time. Our duty is mot to deceide who is saved and who not. Our duty is to spread the gospel and teach them what Jesus taught the apostles. Everything else is Gods duty.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
408
83
I heared following picture to explaine it. - A man heared the gospel and believed it and ask the Lord to forgive him and came into his life. When he then passed away he walked through the heavensgate. While he looked back he saw written on the top of the gate following words: predistinatet before the world was createt. -
I believe we have to give an response to the gospel. And I believe we predistinate before the world was createt. Be honest, for what we need to know this?
Preach the Gospel and see how the people react. Sonetimes, somebody react not positivly when he heares the Gospel the first time. Our duty is mot to deceide who is saved and who not. Our duty is to spread the gospel and teach them what Jesus taught the apostles. Everything else is Gods duty.
God has mercy upon whom he will have mercy and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. Romans 9 is a great teaching chapter as to God and his predetermining all things according to his will and for his glory.


Proverbs 21:1

What better manner of teaching the truth of redemption through Christ than as indwelt vessels who are to live the example. Is that not preaching everywhere we go?And upon every forum where we speak to other sisters and brothers in Christ?
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
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g...,
Yes Christ paid a price for our ability to become free of sin...not a bodily purchase as we know it by...... earthy slave.
A slave cannot walk away...we can walk away from Christ.......as free will is applied by us individually.
Hey Preston...
I didn't post anything about becoming free of sin, because we are not. The underlined commit that seems to be included as a part of my post was not from me. There are a lot of sins committed by the faithful of the NT, as seen in several verses. For example in; Rom 14:3 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatever is not of faith is sin. And in James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." We are also told in Jam 3:2 "For we all stumble in many ways,..." Here we see that even apostles themselves, stumble in many ways. A slave can, in fact, walk away, unless chained, if he so chooses; its just that it behooves him not to do so! If kept chained, the slave will be of limited use and not all slaves are chained.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
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Not an answer to the question.

God says in Rom 1:18-20 that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and who deny the eternal power of God are without excuse.

According to you, God formed some to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and deny the eternal power of God.

Therefore, they have an excuse.





God allows mankind to reject Him.

God wants all to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth).
I believe in election and predestination, so I believe those verses just point out the facts but as you can see they say nothing about why the unbeliever holds to his view. "All men to be saved" may be referring to all the elect.

We can't draw out of those verses the first cause of why, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and deny the eternal power of God. One could easily conclude that God created them that way, since He is sovereign over all things, including the election of the saved.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I believe in election and predestination, so I believe those verses just point out the facts but as you can see they say nothing about why the unbeliever holds to his view. "All men to be saved" may be referring to all the elect.
As I noted in the other thread, Calvinism makes it impossible to read the Bible at face value.

We can't draw out of those verses the first cause of why, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and deny the eternal power of God. One could easily conclude that God created them that way,
Then 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11 and several other verses are not true, or must be twisted to accommodate Calvinism.

since He is sovereign over all things, including the election of the saved.
If God predetermined some people to die, then there is no such thing as evil, and God is not loving and just.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,279
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I believe in election and predestination, so I believe those verses just point out the facts but as you can see they say nothing about why the unbeliever holds to his view. "All men to be saved" may be referring to all the elect.

We can't draw out of those verses the first cause of why, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and deny the eternal power of God. One could easily conclude that God created them that way, since He is sovereign over all things, including the election of the saved.

D.....,

You can believe in it but, that belief is not supported by scriptures.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,673
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While he looked back he saw written on the top of the gate following words: predistinated before the world was created....
Yes, predestinated to be perfected and glorified. That's really what it means. Not predestinated for salvation (or damnation).

This doctrine has been seriously distorted and misrepresented because of Reformed Theology and Calvin. It is IMPOSSIBLE that God would predestine anyone for salvation or damnation since all have sinned, Christ died for all, and all are invited to come and receive the gift of eternal life. "Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception and without discrimination.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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One could easily conclude that God created them that way, since He is sovereign over all things, including the election of the saved.
Please read Romans 1:18:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

You conclude that God created those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness to do this because God is sovereign over all things.

Why would God be angry at them? Shouldn't God be telling them "well done good and faithful servant" if (as you claim) He created them that way?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The true liberty is to be free in the flesh, soul and spirit and not only in spirit.
That is an entirely different subject. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36).
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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Please read Romans 1:18:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

You conclude that God created those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness to do this because God is sovereign over all things.

Why would God be angry at them? Shouldn't God be telling them "well done good and faithful servant" if (as you claim) He created them that way?
He created them with a free will, while the elect don't have a free will.

Lucifer had a free will and he chose to sin against God, just as all the others with a free will do. The only free thing they have is the choice to reject God's grace, but apart from that they are in bondage to their sin, and God has chosen to leave them in it.

God didn't have to save any of us, we all deserved judgement and hell. The fact that He chose to save some, shows that he is a loving and forgiving God who demonstrates His mercy by saving His elect.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The fact that He chose to save some, shows that he is a loving and forgiving God who demonstrates His mercy by saving His elect.
The fact that it is God's desire to save all demonstrates His mercy. 1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You give everyone a license to sin and that's okay with God. The "elect” can behave wickedly because they're "elect" and those who are not "elect" can behave wickedly because they are not "elect". And yet we know God takes no pleasure in wickedness (Psalm 5:4).

What a sham.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I heared following picture to explaine it. - A man heared the gospel and believed it and ask the Lord to forgive him and came into his life. When he then passed away he walked through the heavensgate. While he looked back he saw written on the top of the gate following words: predistinatet before the world was createt. -
I believe we have to give an response to the gospel. And I believe we predistinate before the world was createt. Be honest, for what we need to know this?
Preach the Gospel and see how the people react. Sonetimes, somebody react not positivly when he heares the Gospel the first time. Our duty is mot to deceide who is saved and who not. Our duty is to spread the gospel and teach them what Jesus taught the apostles. Everything else is Gods duty.
and I would say even if they respond badly, We still need to pray for them and ask god to open doors for us to share again, or at the least, live a life in a way that draws this person to Christ.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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He created them with a free will, while the elect don't have a free will.
if he created them with a free will, then they have the ability to say yes to god..

Lucifer had a free will and he chose to sin against God, just as all the others with a free will do. The only free thing they have is the choice to reject God's grace, but apart from that they are in bondage to their sin, and God has chosen to leave them in it.

God didn't have to save any of us, we all deserved judgement and hell. The fact that He chose to save some, shows that he is a loving and forgiving God who demonstrates His mercy by saving His elect.
He did not have to save any of us Amen? But it was his will, that all who see and believe will have eternal life. it is his will, and his love that desires we want his gift, as a parent desires their children to want their gifts (ever had a child reject a christmas gift, it does not feel very good) but if I child never had the ability to hate the gift, or recieve it by free will. . there would be no feeling at all, it woudl all be a play already written and predetermined. based on fathers will, not the fathers love.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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He created them with a free will, while the elect don't have a free will.
All people have free will. It's the ones that use that free will to believe on Jesus Christ who become the elect.

Lucifer had a free will and he chose to sin against God, just as all the others with a free will do. The only free thing they have is the choice to reject God's grace, but apart from that they are in bondage to their sin, and God has chosen to leave them in it.
Your logic is faulty. If they have the choice to reject God's grace, then they have the ability to accept it.

God didn't have to save any of us, we all deserved judgement and hell. The fact that He chose to save some, shows that he is a loving and forgiving God who demonstrates His mercy by saving His elect.
If He only chose to save some, but He had the ability to save all, then He is not loving, nor just, nor fair.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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All people have free will. It's the ones that use that free will to believe on Jesus Christ who become the elect.


Your logic is faulty. If they have the choice to reject God's grace, then they have the ability to accept it.


If He only chose to save some, but He had the ability to save all, then He is not loving, nor just, nor fair.
God is too great and His ways are infinitely higher than ours, it's futile to try to understand an unlimited God with a tiny limited mind. We have been commanded to trust and obey Him, we should never question His motive. I believe it's actually sinful to question His motives.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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D...,

That makes no common sense.
Maybe you could explain a little.
The elect are slaves of Christ, we don't have a free will. The reprobate are free to sin to their hearts content