Predestination or free will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
God is too great and His ways are infinitely higher than ours, it's futile to try to understand an unlimited God with a tiny limited mind. We have been commanded to trust and obey Him, we should never question His motive. I believe it's actually sinful to question His motives.
Your argument is falling apart, so you're resorting to "nobody can understand".

We CAN understand, and God WANTS us to understand.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
Your argument is falling apart, so you're resorting to "nobody can understand".

We CAN understand, and God WANTS us to understand.
we believ God has revealed what He wants us to know about Him in His Word the Holy Bible. But there are things we can't comprehend in our current fallen state so we just trust and obey Him in all that He does and we believe he will reveal everything to us at His appointed time.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
we believ God has revealed what He wants us to know about Him in His Word the Holy Bible. But there are things we can't comprehend in our current fallen state so we just trust and obey Him in all that He does and we believe he will reveal everything to us at His appointed time.
I feel sorry for you.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
The elect are slaves of Christ, we don't have a free will. The reprobate are free to sin to their hearts content
And yet the elect sin even though you claim they are "slaves of Christ" and God is okay with their sin because they are elect? :sick:
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,883
16,115
113
we believ God has revealed what He wants us to know about Him in His Word the Holy Bible. But there are things we can't comprehend in our current fallen state so we just trust and obey Him in all that He does and we believe he will reveal everything to us at His appointed time.
God desires us to have faith

Not blind faith.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,883
16,115
113
A slave such as I is not special at all, Jesus is the only special One. We live to serve and glorify Him in all that we do
Your puffing up your status and your slavery and election. I am sure to you it does not sound that way, but try to put yourself in other peoples shoes and listen to yourself.

You will not see me do this, You will not even hear me talk about me, You will hear me praise God and him alone.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
2,895
670
113
and I would say even if they respond badly, We still need to pray for them and ask god to open doors for us to share again, or at the least, live a life in a way that draws this person to Christ.
Thats right, i got a second chance after rejecting Christ, too
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
15,805
9,474
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
Alright everyone, you are all overthinking on this topic. Yes, the elect were called to serve from before the foundation of the world. Predestination is real. Still it does not take away our choices. It just states that God knows our choices, good and bad. A person can serve the Lord all his life and draw back sometime by persecution or maybe bitterness. Like Solomon did. We shouldn't even think about what God knows and just work at obeying Him. Don't give yourself a choice tomorrow, fix your heart on God and serve Him though He slay you.

All you that say our works will not save us: that is true. But if we are truly saved our lives will have works. True faith God will put to work. What have you done for God lately? What has God done through you lately?


 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
And yet the elect sin even though you claim they are "slaves of Christ" and God is okay with their sin because they are elect? :sick:
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.
We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.
So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.
We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.
So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.
Yes, you sin just as the reprobate sin. In fact, someone could conclude that your sin is greater than the reprobate if, in fact, "that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation".

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it

First God limits trials/temptations so you are not tempted above your ability to endure it.

And God provides an escape.

For you to infer that you are "at war with sin" and yet you still sin (even though God provides a way to escape and God limits the trials so you are not tempted above your ability to endure) is pure fallacy on your part. You sin because you ignore the escape so you may enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,883
16,115
113
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.
We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.
So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.
Oh boy. You need to learn what sin is my friend

Anyone and everyone sins for one purpose. they are trying to fulfill the flesh.

When a non believer chooses to serve self over the needs of others, they sin, because they want to

When a believer chooses to serve self over the needs of others, they do so because they want to.

a non believer can even love others, Just not the way God did, as scripture says, Even gentiles can do good. who have no law.

Romans 2:14

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
15,805
9,474
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.
We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.
So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.
You are both right to a point. Yes, we are at war with our sinful natures and we will slip and sin. See answer below.
Yes, you sin just as the reprobate sin. In fact, someone could conclude that your sin is greater than the reprobate if, in fact, "that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation".

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it

First God limits trials/temptations so you are not tempted above your ability to endure it.

And God provides an escape.

For you to infer that you are "at war with sin" and yet you still sin (even though God provides a way to escape and God limits the trials so you are not tempted above your ability to endure) is pure fallacy on your part. You sin because you ignore the escape so you may enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.
You are lumping occasional sin with apostasy. Those that seek the way of the spirit will usually check the sin while it is in their head, before carrying it out. There is no condemnation for them (Rom. 8:1).
Sometimes they will actually commit the sin when their guard is down but as soon as they recognize it as sin, they repent and stop. Still no condemnation.


Now apostasy is different. Here, self justification is the culprit and the devil is very good helping with that. Once you start justifying yourself you will soon need to start making excuses for your actions. The effect starts snowballing, sin then cover up, sin and cover up, unless you can or will turn it around you become apostate.

pondering-and-thinking-smiley-emoticon.gif
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
You are both right to a point. Yes, we are at war with our sinful natures and we will slip and sin. See answer below.


You are lumping occasional sin with apostasy. Those that seek the way of the spirit will usually check the sin while it is in their head, before carrying it out. There is no condemnation for them (Rom. 8:1).
Sometimes they will actually commit the sin when their guard is down but as soon as they recognize it as sin, they repent and stop. Still no condemnation.


Now apostasy is different. Here, self justification is the culprit and the devil is very good helping with that. Once you start justifying yourself you will soon need to start making excuses for your actions. The effect starts snowballing, sin then cover up, sin and cover up, unless you can or will turn it around you become apostate.

View attachment 184597
Some of Gods elect commit murder, adultery and all kinds of sin but they don't lose their salvation if they repent. Just read your Bible and you will see plenty of cases. God know that we will continue to fall into sin, that's why Jesus paid for all of our past, present and future sins. You would know all of this is true if you studied your Bible
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,021
1,177
113
You are lumping occasional sin with apostasy. Those that seek the way of the spirit will usually check the sin while it is in their head, before carrying it out. There is no condemnation for them (Rom. 8:1).
Sometimes they will actually commit the sin when their guard is down but as soon as they recognize it as sin, they repent and stop. Still no condemnation.


Now apostasy is different. Here, self justification is the culprit and the devil is very good helping with that. Once you start justifying yourself you will soon need to start making excuses for your actions. The effect starts snowballing, sin then cover up, sin and cover up, unless you can or will turn it around you become apostate.
Apostasy is when someone walks away from their religious convictions. We're not speaking of a believer who falls into apostasy.

Danny1988 is referring to a believer who sins and an unbeliever (not an apostate) who sins.

According to Danny1988 his sin is not the same as the sin of the unbeliever because the unbeliever was created by God solely for the purpose of sinning.

My point is that if that is the case, then Danny1988's sins are even worse than the unbeliever because (1) God limits temptation in Danny1988's life so that he can overcome the temptation to sin (but he sins anyway); and (2) God makes a way to escape so that he won't sin (but he sins anyway).

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
............. Predestination is real.

If you are speaking of G-d and scriptures...it is not.


Still it does not take away our choices.

Predestination would take away ALL individual choices.


It just states that God knows our choices, good and bad.

G-d's knowledge of our future....has nothing to do with predestination.

A person can serve the Lord all his life and draw back sometime by persecution or maybe bitterness. Like Solomon did.

Not predestination or knowledge of the future...it is BACKSLIDING...referenced in SCRIPTURES.

.............All you that say our works will not save us: that is true. But if we are truly saved our lives will have works. True faith God will put to work. What have you done for God lately? What has God done through you lately?

D......,

Predestination is not comprehensible or compatible with scriptures, given G-d's plan of forgiveness and individual responsibility under His plan.
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
288
62
28
My views
I see predestination as a “Blue print” of God’s Divine plan/purpose of His Will for our lives as we walk on this earth.
Predestination for a sinner,is the cross for God is a righteous Judge
For a believer, Gods predestination is His Divine/Will plan (formed before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world………..)
For our lives to which He knows we can accomplish.
As with the sinner, it is our Will to either follow or reject God’s Will. God cannot as with Satan force our Will, it must be our own decision (free Will)
The irony of it all, Jesus who is the Word who became flesh surrendered His Will to the Father: Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

God Bless
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
Alright everyone, you are all overthinking on this topic. Yes, the elect were called to serve from before the foundation of the world. Predestination is real. Still it does not take away our choices. It just states that God knows our choices, good and bad. A person can serve the Lord all his life and draw back sometime by persecution or maybe bitterness. Like Solomon did. We shouldn't even think about what God knows and just work at obeying Him. Don't give yourself a choice tomorrow, fix your heart on God and serve Him though He slay you.

All you that say our works will not save us: that is true. But if we are truly saved our lives will have works. True faith God will put to work. What have you done for God lately? What has God done through you lately?

Don't give yourself a choice tomorrow <-- do not worry about tomorrow, for each day have enough trouble of it's own (Matthew 6)
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
book of life
therefore, predestination is true
ta da

free will exist
we can choose either to reject or place our faith in the gospel

God transcend time, so the book of life can be before, during, or after salvation, doesn't matter

predestination is true + free will exist = both

discussion over ...
... um, what is this about other topics like "sin" and all that?