predestination vs freewill

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Adstar

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Jul 24, 2016
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You are only free to choose if God sets you free to choose ... there were some who followed Jesus whose eyes God closed and whose ears He stopped up and whose hearts He hardened, lest at any time they should turn to Him and He heal them.

In old testament days this promise or command as it is only came to the Jews. The Egyptians didn't get the choice or the Philistines or Moab or Anakin.
And many of the Jews resisted the leading of the Holy Spirit because they had free will..
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
is (God's) mercy and grace possible without predestination?

[Eph 1:1, 3-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
Let me give you an hypothetical scenario, and see if it's true that you can't have both free will and predestination?

Let's say God has created the world to save 10 billion people. And He sent forth His word to create these people. His Word cannot fail, and these people must be created. In effect this means that the billions of people produced beyond the planned 10 billion people cannot be saved, because they were not planned by God.

But let's say that God also built into His predestined Word a process, in which free will takes place. Then people fail, producing people either planned by God or people not planned by God.

What people are "planned by God," and those who are *not,* is part of the process of free will. When God's Word plans people, they can fail, or disobey God's Word, but they will always respond to God's Word, as well. When they are not planned by God, they can succeed in obeying God's Word at times, but ultimately they reject God's Word.

To put it bluntly, those planned by God accept the Word that planned them. They are drawn towards the fulfillment they were predestined to.

But those not planned by God are repulsed by the Word of God that had not planned them. God cannot plan for children He did not predestinate, and they will always reject the Word that did not predestine them.

That doesn't mean that people are not free to obey God or to disobey God. Whether planned or not, all can either obey or disobey God. But the critical element in Salvation is the acceptance of God's Word as an internal reality, remaking the person in the image of God.

Those who reject this Word can never do more than obey God occasionally and experience spirituality on occasion. They reject a complete makeover of their lives based on God's Word.

It's important, if this is true, to recognize that all men still have dignity, whether they will be saved or not, and that all men can obey God's Word. And so, we must declare the Gospel to all men, regardless of whether we think they will be saved.

The reward for Salvation is eternal life with God. But those who will not be saved and in close fellowship with God will still exist in some domain created by God with some distance. (It's called "Outer Darkness"--the Lake of Fire is purely an eternal condition of removal from the "Promised Land.") And to the degree they have obeyed God their punishment will be lightened. We should help all men, regardless of their outcome.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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Let me give you an hypothetical scenario, and see if it's true that you can't have both free will and predestination?

Let's say God has created the world to save 10 billion people. And He sent forth His word to create these people. His Word cannot fail, and these people must be created. In effect this means that the billions of people produced beyond the planned 10 billion people cannot be saved, because they were not planned by God.

But let's say that God also built into His predestined Word a process, in which free will takes place. Then people fail, producing people either planned by God or people not planned by God.

What people are "planned by God," and those who are *not,* is part of the process of free will. When God's Word plans people, they can fail, or disobey God's Word, but they will always respond to God's Word, as well. When they are not planned by God, they can succeed in obeying God's Word at times, but ultimately they reject God's Word.

To put it bluntly, those planned by God accept the Word that planned them. They are drawn towards the fulfillment they were predestined to.

But those not planned by God are repulsed by the Word of God that had not planned them. God cannot plan for children He did not predestinate, and they will always reject the Word that did not predestine them.

That doesn't mean that people are not free to obey God or to disobey God. Whether planned or not, all can either obey or disobey God. But the critical element in Salvation is the acceptance of God's Word as an internal reality, remaking the person in the image of God.

Those who reject this Word can never do more than obey God occasionally and experience spirituality on occasion. They reject a complete makeover of their lives based on God's Word.

It's important, if this is true, to recognize that all men still have dignity, whether they will be saved or not, and that all men can obey God's Word. And so, we must declare the Gospel to all men, regardless of whether we think they will be saved.

The reward for Salvation is eternal life with God. But those who will not be saved and in close fellowship with God will still exist in some domain created by God with some distance. (It's called "Outer Darkness"--the Lake of Fire is purely an eternal condition of removal from the "Promised Land.") And to the degree they have obeyed God their punishment will be lightened. We should help all men, regardless of their outcome.
Q: Was The "Foreknowledge" Of God somewhere in your hypothesis?
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
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is (God's) mercy and grace possible without predestination?

[Eph 1:1, 3-5 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Don't forget to include the rest of the Related Scriptures:

Rom 8:29-30 KJB!:
29 For whom HE Did Foreknow, HE Also Did Predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS SON, that HE might be The Firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom HE Did Predestinate, them HE also called: and whom HE called, them HE also justified: and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Q: Was The "Foreknowledge" Of God somewhere in your hypothesis?
It never satisfied me just to say God knows who will be saved. Of course He does. He chooses, in advance, those He wants to create, and they will, in fact, be saved. God cannot fail. And those who choose do so in pursuit of the purpose for which they were created. They choose from the perspective of their own self-interest. They choose for or against God based on whether God chose them for Himself, or whether they are the product of human independence from God. But they can always choose to do good, and improve their eternal status.
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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You are only free to choose if God sets you free to choose ... there were some who followed Jesus whose eyes God closed and whose ears He stopped up and whose hearts He hardened, lest at any time they should turn to Him and He heal them.

In old testament days this promise or command as it is only came to the Jews. The Egyptians didn't get the choice or the Philistines or Moab or Anakin.

And it's a command YOU didn't choose the options, YOU had no say in the consequences. You couldn't even choose not to choose, you must choose.

Serve God and live that's not your will, that's God's will.
serve the devil and die, dead men have no freewill.

You can't say " ok God I won't serve You but I refuse to die"
We are not puppets or robots. How can God judge righteously if He compels people to sin? If God chooses to save or not, what is the point of preaching the gospel? You are wrong about the other tribes that were contemporary to Israel. God made provision that a non-Israelite could become an Israelite if he wished. No, I don't know how to reconcile free will with predestination. I will say that if God made all the choices for me, my life would have been vastly different and way better. Hyper Calvinism is no better than hyper Grace.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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We are not puppets or robots. How can God judge righteously if He compels people to sin? If God chooses to save or not, what is the point of preaching the gospel? You are wrong about the other tribes that were contemporary to Israel. God made provision that a non-Israelite could become an Israelite if he wished. No, I don't know how to reconcile free will with predestination. I will say that if God made all the choices for me, my life would have been vastly different and way better. Hyper Calvinism is no better than hyper Grace.
You are right we are not puppets any more, we used to be when the devil could come at will and push our buttons, he could get us to do his will, we were his slaves, slaves to sin and death

Now THAT'S what the bible teaches. It doesn't say a thing in the NT about human freewill and there are about 3 references to freewill in the OT. They relate to freewill offerings because God does not demand back blessings He has given .... but regarding those offerings it says in another place that God moved the hearts of those He wished to give.

Does it trouble you that God should move our hearts to accomplish His will? does it worry you that He should will IN US to do of His good will? is that what you mean about us being puppets?

Where do you read that God compels anyone to sin, God strictly charged the man concerning knowledge of evil ..."leave it alone, you have no choice, I'm telling you, you'll die if you mess with that tree" That is not freewill to sin, the consequences are much too severe to treat lightly.

But the devil tricked them into believing they had freewill, he said "you will not die." and they believed him rather than God. They found out soon enough that they did not have freewill to sin, they found out soon enough that whereas they had been FREE now they were SLAVES.

See being free is not freedom to sin. Now Adam could choose but YOU and I can't choose, we are born sinners and we will sin and because we sin we die and dead folks do not have freewill. We are already dead while we walk. But thank God He has sent Jesus to set us free, He saved us.

But don't say you were already free brother, what purpose would there be in Jesus dying for us if we had freewill?

I reject Calvin's doctrine, I believe in bible predestination and you are right there is no way to reconcile human freewill with predestination.

All it means is since God chose us before the world began and decided that we should belong to His Son [why that doesn't make your heart sing for joy is beyond my understanding ... but people gripe and moan about it] He chose us and He makes all things work together for our good. What is so awful about that.?
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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And many of the Jews resisted the leading of the Holy Spirit because they had free will..
The NT doesn't say anything at all about anyone having freewill. The Jews were under the law, that is not freewill.

Jesus said of those who persecuted that they were children of their father the devil and HIS will ye will do.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
You have freewill.
If you don't God is not a loving Lord and we are not able to love.
With our freewill we do make choices that affect us eternally, our choices affect our salvation.
We do not earn our salvation by our choices, and our choices do not make us good enough to be saved.
Our choices allow Jesus' blood to cover us (justification) and our choices allow Jesus to change and renew us from within (sanctification).

By choosing to love Jesus because He first loved us, we will continue to act, choose, work, do Gods will.
It is a natural response.
When you love someone you desire to do good for them.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
2,416
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Australia
Do we have freewill to choose?
Yes,
Sure we are born in slavery to sin, which means we naturally desire sin more then righteousness, but Jesus has given us free choice from the start. To be free from sin require a choice on our part. A choice to die to the flesh or obey the flesh. We cannot do it in our own power but Jesus has promised to help anyone that call out to Him .

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

These verses would mean nothing if we had no choice.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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The below doesn't sound like free will to me. But, I could be wrong.

Deuteronomy 29:4 NLT - "But to this day the LORD has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!"

The below gives us good reason to be thankful that being Controlled by the Spirit is the Work of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

The below doesn't sound like free will to me. In fact, it shows that the Lord has placed His Holy Mind Control over "most of Israel."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

I could just be out of my mind and am somehow believing what I'm reading . . . it all seems pretty clear to me.
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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The below doesn't sound like free will to me. But, I could be wrong.

Deuteronomy 29:4 NLT - "But to this day the LORD has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!"

The below gives us good reason to be thankful that being Controlled by the Spirit is the Work of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT - "The LORD your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live!"

The below doesn't sound like free will to me. In fact, it shows that the Lord has placed His Holy Mind Control over "most of Israel."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

I could just be out of my mind and am somehow believing what I'm reading . . . it all seems pretty clear to me.
Clear to some
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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And since mums the word, no one wanted to comment on my obvious verses but yourself. What does that tell ya? Most, here, don't even want to believe . . . they're too afraid to change their mind and say, "Wow. I was wrong." No one recants on their bad doctrine . . . that's scary.
 

NOV25

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Nov 23, 2019
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And since mums the word, no one wanted to comment on my obvious verses but yourself. What does that tell ya? Most, here, don't even want to believe . . . they're too afraid to change their mind and say, "Wow. I was wrong." No one recants on their bad doctrine . . . that's scary.
It really comes down to one of two conditions. Some are Christian: born of Spirit but have not grasped the doctrine and the other camp cannot hear the voice of Christ, the Word. I fear the majority of the ones you see here fall into the second camp. John 8. Why do you not understand my words, because you are children of the devil... You'll know them by their fruit...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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The NT doesn't say anything at all about anyone having freewill. The Jews were under the law, that is not freewill.

Jesus said of those who persecuted that they were children of their father the devil and HIS will ye will do.
You seem to have a pretty distorted definiton of free will..

The Jews were under the law, that is not freewill.
And how often did the Jews by their free will ability rebel against the Laws of God thus leading to the wrath of God coming upon them time and time again as when they where banished to Babylon to serve 50 years as bonded servants.. They demonstrated their free will by resisting the Will of God..
 

BrokenSparrow

Senior Member
Sep 12, 2016
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The only way to the Father is through the Son. The Son is the light that lights every man that comes into the world.

God gave Adam a commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge or he would surely die. As soon as Adam disobeyed, he became spiritually dead and this curse continued for all men. We all became spiritually dead.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Thank God, that he remedied this by sending his only begotten Son.

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Jesus is that life giving spirit. He is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world.

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Do we have freewill to choose?
Yes,
Sure we are born in slavery to sin, which means we naturally desire sin more then righteousness, but Jesus has given us free choice from the start. To be free from sin require a choice on our part. A choice to die to the flesh or obey the flesh. We cannot do it in our own power but Jesus has promised to help anyone that call out to Him .
How do you interpret these verses?

[2Th 2:10-14 KJV]
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
902
266
63
Pacific NW USA
Do we have freewill to choose?
Yes,
Sure we are born in slavery to sin, which means we naturally desire sin more then righteousness, but Jesus has given us free choice from the start. To be free from sin require a choice on our part. A choice to die to the flesh or obey the flesh. We cannot do it in our own power but Jesus has promised to help anyone that call out to Him .

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rom 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

These verses would mean nothing if we had no choice.
Yes, absolutely. Our bondage to sin does not mean that we don't have free will. One can be addicted to alcohol and still choose to drink or not drink. It is unavoidable that our impure hearts always play a role in everything we do, good or bad. But the fact is, we can still choose to do good or bad.

Better yet, we can choose to follow Christ, which gives us the power to emulate Christ and to produce virtue out of his Spirit. The world can choose to do good, but they can only produce mixed Christian virtue without committing fully to Christ. This does not produce evidence of salvation, but only of a virtue lacking evidence of Christian redemption.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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You seem to have a pretty distorted definiton of free will..



And how often did the Jews by their free will ability rebel against the Laws of God thus leading to the wrath of God coming upon them time and time again as when they where banished to Babylon to serve 50 years as bonded servants.. They demonstrated their free will by resisting the Will of God..
My definition of human freewill is crystal clear if it is nothing else, my definition is there's no such thing. Only God has free sovereign will.

Your post outlines man's condition very well. You say they rebelled against God's will and ended up banished to Babylon to serve 70 years as slaves ... how is that any definition of freewill? you say they chose, but they didn't, they chose neither God's will nor 70 years as slaves ... that is why I say human freewill is a delusion, a deception.

Paul shows in Romans 7 exactly what his condition was before Christ saved him. He says the good which he wanted to do he did not but the evil which he hated is what he did. He cries out "who shall deliver me from this body of death? thanks be to God through Jesus Christ" Chapter 8. Now I am FREE to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

You do have a will but it is not free it is in bondage and it will lead you into greater and greater bondage if you follow it. This is as true for the christian as for the non christian THAT'S what is wrong with the church.

As soon as folks get saved they get brainwashed into believing that they chose God of their own freewill, it is drummed into them relentlessly ... nobody in the bible talks that way. So now they carry on their whole christian walk doing their own freewill and inevitably, as sure as eggs are eggs they fall right back into bondage.

Being FREE is not the same thing as having freewill. Being free is being the person God has made you to be. becoming the NEW you.

You say you chose it, I say God chose it for you when you were uncapable of choosing it for yourself. It's all mercy and grace.