predestination vs freewill

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Aug 30, 2016
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#21
As far as Christianity is concerned ones beliefs and who One trusts determines the their eternal outcome..

God can predetermine because God has foreknowledge of all History.. Down to knowing each and every human beings response to His will before they even existed... This does not take away our free will.. We live in the here and now of universe space and universe time.. God is not bound by either universe time or space.. Indeed God existed before the universe and created the Universe so He is not and never will be dependent or bound by the laws of the universe.. So God can see all our times from His eternal perspective.. God knows the Beginning and the End....

So both our free will and Gods predestination exist together... They can exist together because God being God is not bound by His creation...
We must understand God knows everything that we will do from birth to death. God has Predestined everybody to accept Him as their Lord and Savior. God knew even before He created anything that Adam and Eve will sin.

God knows if you will accept Him or Reject Him even before you were born. Does this change our choosing or rejecting of Him? No, it does not.

Predestined means God chose you first. You did not chose God first. Does this violate your free will? No, it does not. You still have the choice to chose Him after He calls you, or reject Him. Just because God knows what you will do does not violate your free will. You still have your free will to chose what you want.

Your actions do determine what happens to you, but God knew before He created anything what you will do.

Its like us watching a movie and seeing what happens in the end. Does this alter how the movie ends if you watch it again? No.

We have the free will to accept or reject God. God has predestined those who He knows will accept Him to accept Him. So yes we still have free will.
@VDP like I said, then what's the point for God choosing the people he wanted to choose since ultimately its still boils down to the action of the chosen ones? What about those He didnt choose? Does that mean no matter what they do they still wont get into heaven? Awwww
 
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TrailofTruth

Guest
#22
@Trail, like the train scenario you gave... It makes some sense but not to a full extent. You see, if we were to use ur train example as comparison, its in a way that saying God has predestined the train driver to drive that train on the track that God has already laid ahead right? Then no matter what the train driver does, he still has to go pass that track God has laid for him. Ok then you will say train driver drvie still has freewill isn it? Because he can choose to brake the train, then here is the problem, what is the point for God to predestine something then if it will not work 100% or it still has to depend on the person's accomodating action to make it work?
No. That person chose that line of work- to drive a train. Let me give you another example. Have you ever driven with GPS and did not go the way that it said to go? What happens is it redirects you back to the route. Now if you had no choice, it would force you to go the way that it said to go, it would be impossible to go a different way, if you had no choice. Well with God He redirects us too. Jonah kept trying not to go to Ninivah, and God kept making it harder to make that choice till finally he did go. God also made it harder for Pharaoh to make his choice.

But in the cases of both Jonah and Pharaoh, whether they did what God wanted them to do or not, WAS their choice. I believe that God put that soul in that position in time because He knew what they would choose, but the choices they made really were their choices. If I had to choose someone to fix my car, and my options were a clown, a ballerina, or a mechanic, I would choose the mechanic because I know that he will fix my car. But when he does fix it, it was his decision.
 
Feb 9, 2010
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#23
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
The Bible says that all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,and the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world,although they were future events,so it shows that although they are future events,they are still considered as happening in the beginning,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened.

The Bible says that God is not willing that any perish,but all come to repentance,and God would have all people to be saved,and Jesus is the Savior of the world,and the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world,and Jesus lights every person that comes in to this world,and the Spirit,and bride,say come,and whosoever will,let them take of the water of life freely,and many are called but few chosen.

The Bible says God wants all people to be saved,and Jesus is the Savior to whoever wants salvation,so it does not appear as if God chose who would be saved in the beginning,but God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,and that salvation is to whoever wants it.

Also God's kingdom is love,not robotic love,and if God chose who would be saved,without their input,then God's kingdom is not true love,but robotic love,for they have no choice but to follow God seeing no other alternative,which would go against God's nature that He is love.

Many are called but few are chosen.

But although we have a choice to follow God or not,God still gets the glory,for the Bible says conduct yourselves properly in the world,which act like Christ,that the world that watches what you do,will glorify God,in the day of visitation,and God knows the hearts,and if in the right condition God will call that person,and no person comes to the Son,except the Father draw them,and no person says Jesus is Lord,except by the Spirit,so God will get us where we need to be,but we have to make the choice to accept,which not everybody takes it all the way,which is why the Bible says,for many are called,but few chosen.

If we do not have freewill to choose our destination,why are the ones not chosen in the beginning being punished,and why is there a need for the Bible to explain a lot of things,and prophesy to testify that God is true,for nothing has to be proven,nothing has to be explained,because they are going to follow God anyway,which creation testifies there is a God that loves people,so people are without excuse,and that is how the world will be judged,but if OSAS,what is the need for the word of God,when creation testifies there is a God,and they are going to follow God anyway,and also all are sinners and come short of the glory of God,so why would God chose some,and not others.
 

Connock

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2016
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#24
Predestination vs Free Will - one of the classic questions, best framed in the Calvin-Arminius debate. It splits reasoned opinion, and both sides have solid scriptural support. I see it as a matter of perspective.

God is not constrained by time, able to tell the "end from the beginning" (Isa 46:9-10). The results of our free will are known to Him. How can that be? How can He or anyone know now what will happen tomorrow? Because He stands outside the dimension of time, God is not constrained by "before" and "after". It's all visible to Him at any instant, or more properly, at all instances (at once). Every day of existence is visible to Him, from the first to the last. Each of those is just as real as any other.

Consider this. Today I have free will. Yesterday I HAD free will. Yet, today, my actions of yesterday are already determined. I cannot change them. (if only!) They are not so much "pre-determined" as "determined". (funny I get a red squiggly line under "pre-determined"--Must be a Methodist who coded this). The only difference is one of time.

We mortals are constrained by time. God is not. We live in a world where free will either exists for us, or the image of it is so real, that people live as if it does (even the most die-hard five point Calvinists). To God, its all known. That's why prophecy is not prediction, but rather description.
 
H

Hawkins

Guest
#25
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
Your reasoning here is based on a common understanding of what "TIME" is as a human conception. However, no humans actually understand conceptually what time is. In science, just as Einstein put, time is not a stable physics unit, instead speed is.
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#26
@John you didn answer my qus directly. Bible did say God has chosen some people to be saved, didnt mention all. So my question is, if these chosen ones are going to heaven after accepting Christ, does that mean that their subsequent actions will not alter this outcome of entering heaven? And if that happens, what is the purpose of freewill?
God has chosen people to be saved. Who? Those who are in His Son through the gospel.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#27
"""""@John you didn answer my qus directly. Bible did say God has chosen some people to be saved, didnt mention all."""""

Yes God has chosen some to be saved .. from his foreknowledge of them..

Romans 8:KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There are no idol words in scripture.. His Foreknowing comes before his predestination in the verse for a reason..
As I stated earlier, my destination is set because I believe the gospel which places me in Christ. God now knows me even though I am not at my final destination which is the adoption. God knows He's going to adopt me because I'm in Christ. The adoption is a future event which Scripture also refers to as the redemption.

Romans 8:23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Who's the us? Who has God predestinated? Those in His Son.
 
H

Hawkins

Guest
#28
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
We act in a timeline. God can choose to know or He can choose not to know. For an example, we the wicked are put in a permanent separation from God, it could mean that God chooses not not know how they act. Their freewill will still function under the situation that God chooses not to know what they do.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#29
We act in a timeline. God can choose to know or He can choose not to know. For an example, we the wicked are put in a permanent separation from God, it could mean that God chooses not not know how they act. Their freewill will still function under the situation that God chooses not to know what they do.
Well said, most people want to define who God is and keep God in their definition in stead of looking to Scripture to define God and His attributes. God to choose not to know certain things even future choices. When those choices are made you can bet God knows them.
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#30
There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
There is no predestination. The Lord has a plan for us, but it is only realized if we follow him.
 
Aug 30, 2016
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#31
Yes there is @resu

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#32
Yes there is @resu

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
See post 27
 
Aug 30, 2016
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#33
No. That person chose that line of work- to drive a train. Let me give you another example. Have you ever driven with GPS and did not go the way that it said to go? What happens is it redirects you back to the route. Now if you had no choice, it would force you to go the way that it said to go, it would be impossible to go a different way, if you had no choice. Well with God He redirects us too. Jonah kept trying not to go to Ninivah, and God kept making it harder to make that choice till finally he did go. God also made it harder for Pharaoh to make his choice.

But in the cases of both Jonah and Pharaoh, whether they did what God wanted them to do or not, WAS their choice. I believe that God put that soul in that position in time because He knew what they would choose, but the choices they made really were their choices. If I had to choose someone to fix my car, and my options were a clown, a ballerina, or a mechanic, I would choose the mechanic because I know that he will fix my car. But when he does fix it, it was his decision.
@Trail, for your gps example, i understand, when we took a different route, it will reroute for us, ensuring us reaching our destination. So if this how God works, then what is the point of giving us freewill because eventually no matter what we do, we will still reach at the destination God has alread set for us.

For your mechanic example, i presume the 'I' in this scenario is God since you knw he can fix and thus u choose him to fix right? Ok so I (God) has chosen him... Isn this predestination already? Ok next, u said he can choose not to fix my car right, then whats the point of I(God) predetermining him fixing my car in the first place?

It seems that freewill and predestination cannot be in harmony...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#34
@Trail, for your gps example, i understand, when we took a different route, it will reroute for us, ensuring us reaching our destination. So if this how God works, then what is the point of giving us freewill because eventually no matter what we do, we will still reach at the destination God has alread set for us.

For your mechanic example, i presume the 'I' in this scenario is God since you knw he can fix and thus u choose him to fix right? Ok so I (God) has chosen him... Isn this predestination already? Ok next, u said he can choose not to fix my car right, then whats the point of I(God) predetermining him fixing my car in the first place?

It seems that freewill and predestination cannot be in harmony...
Romans 8:23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ephesians 1:5, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

We are predestined for the adoption. That is not salvation. Paul's audience is already saved. Paul's teaching us that we have not yet received our final destination which is the adoption, the redemption of our bodies.
 
Aug 30, 2016
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#35
Hi @John I try to understand your post reply but I just cant seem to be able to locate from your sharing in regards to how freewill & predestination can work side by side...

Or perhaps you can elaborate in another way? Probably using an illustration? Like how the others did..
 

Marano

Senior Member
Dec 7, 2011
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#36
No one is trully free before they can experimented everything God's creation is about and that won't come before we get a glorified body and live in the new Jerusalem.

Think about it can you say you're trully free when you say your favorite car is a fiat or volkswagen but you've never gotten to drive a ferrari, a mclaren or a lamborghini? Or can you trully say what your favorite food is? No to both questions, you can only answer relative to how many cars you've driven or to any number of different foods you've tasted. You can say however that the will of the Father is what you want and you know His will always comes to pass, that's trully freedom.

Outside of that free will as you know it is an illusion, no one can be trully free outside the will of the Father.

And yes God determines everything before the creation of time itself, being that He is outside of time as you know it, and he has predestined the elect for salvation and also those who wouldn't believe for dammnation.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#37
where in Scripture is the idea of free will after Adam?. our wills are far from free. they are determined by our make up, our background and our predispositions, etc. and they will never freely turn towards God.

God chose those who are His from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1.4). If He had not done so none would be saved. He left to damnation those who chose damnation.
 

duewell

Senior Member
Mar 5, 2011
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#38
without free will there cannot be predestination. some say God has predestined people to damnation. but if they didn't have free will how could the be held accountable for their actions. why even let a person be born if their predestination only led them to eternal spiritual damnation. if predestination of the damned exist and predestination of the saved exist, why did we even need Jesus in the first place? why would we be told that choosing to believe in Jesus would lead to salvation if the predestined would still go to hell after making the choice to believe in Jesus.

the hard truth is people do not understand what predestination is. those that are conformed to the image of Christ and that have been crucified with Christ are co heirs with Christ. they chose to become a living sacrifice and put to death the sins of the flesh by following the example of Christ.

any time someone talks about predestination, you will notice they don't talk about how it is that they have been predestined for damnation. just like the rapture crowd doesn't talk about how they are getting left behind. i wonder why that is? after all if no one has free will why even have a physical existence in the first place? people don't understand predestination because they never made the choice to be conformed. they have no Spiritual experience. they are cooks demanding to teach others their recipes, while everyone is starving to death.

duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
the rainbow connection
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#39
free will

Free will

Free Will

FRee WIll

FREe WILl

FREE WILL


uh, er, did I mention..........FREE WILL?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#40
Hi @John I try to understand your post reply but I just cant seem to be able to locate from your sharing in regards to how freewill & predestination can work side by side...

Or perhaps you can elaborate in another way? Probably using an illustration? Like how the others did..
I'm not saying people are predestined for salvation. That's not what Scripture says. Let's look at the word predestination.

Pre = before and destination = final outcome

Because I have believed on the gospel of Jesus Christ, God has determined my final destination. It has not yet happened. It's in the future. My destination is the adoption which is the redemption of my body, when my corruptible has put in-corrupable and I will be changed to be in the image of Jesus Christ once and for all.

All Scriptures using the word predestined are never in reference to a person being saved, but rather, to those who are already saved and what their future holds as being in him, in Christ.